Welcome to Episode 120 of the Think UDL podcast: The Double Empathy Problem with Aaron Lanou and Colin Ozeki. Aaron Lanou is an educational consultant supporting schools and organizations to reach all kids with inclusive, strengths-based practices. Through the lens of Universal Design for Learning, he coaches teachers to support autistic students and all kids with a variety of academic, executive functioning, and social support needs. Aaron is also a member of Carol Gray’s Team Social Stories and was previously a special education teacher in the New York City Public Schools and Executive Director of ASD Nest at NYU, leading the nation’s largest inclusion program for autistic students. Colin Ozeki is currently a special education teacher at Urban Assembly Media Studies High School supporting the autism inclusion program ASD Nest. Growing up as an autistic student, he noticed the significant lack of autistic teachers and role models. Taking this observation into adulthood, Colin stepped up to become the teacher, role model, and inspiration autistic students deserve. He uses his unique position as an autistic teacher to promote neurodivergent inclusion, acceptance, and understanding of different neurotypes across school environments as a living example of success. Today’s episode focuses on a mindset and technique that Aaron and Colin introduced to me that is helpful when dealing with the Double Empathy problem, which is essentially what we have when a heterogenous group of neurotypical and neurodivergent, specifically autistic, people communicate with each other. Who do we expect to bend more or less, and how can we best communicate together? Stay tuned for some fantastic insights from Colin and Aaron along with how this all relates to UDL.
Resources
Aaron Lanou’s website: aaronlanou.com
Aaron’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronlanou/
Aaron’s Instagram: @aaronlanou
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
autistic, neurotypical, colin, students, talk, learning, communication, people, teacher, aaron, communicate, curiosity, udl, podcast, perspective, share, special education teacher, leading, learner, question
SPEAKERS
Aaron Lanou, Lillian Nave, Colin Ozeki
Lillian Nave 00:02
Welcome to think UDL, the universal design for learning podcast where we hear from the people who are designing and implementing strategies with learner variability in mind. I’m your host, Lillian nave. And I’m interested in not just what you’re teaching, learning, guiding and facilitating, but how you design and implement it and why it even matters. Welcome to Episode 120 of the think UDL podcast, the double empathy problem with Aaron Lemieux and Colin Ozeki. Aaron Lanou is an educational consultant, supporting schools and organizations to reach all kids with Inclusive strength based practices. through the lens of Universal Design for Learning. He coaches teachers to support autistic students, and all kids with a variety of academic, executive functioning and social support needs. Aaron is also a member of Carol Gray’s team social stories, and was previously a special education teacher in the New York City public schools and executive director of a s d nest at NYU, leading the nation’s largest inclusion program for autistic students. Colin Ozeki is currently a special education teacher at Urban assembly Media Studies High School supporting the autism inclusion program A S D nest. Growing up as an autistic student he noticed the significant lack of autistic teachers and role models. Taking this observation into adulthood, Colin stepped up to become the teacher role model and inspiration autistic students deserve. He uses his unique position as an autistic teacher to promote neurodivergent inclusion, acceptance and understanding of different neuro types across school environments as a living example of success. Today’s episode focuses on a mindset and technique that Aaron and Colin introduced to me, that is helpful when dealing with the double empathy problem, which is essentially what we have when a heterogeneous group of neurotypical and neurodivergent specifically autistic people communicate with each other? Who do we expect to bend more or less? And how can we best communicate together? Stay tuned for some fantastic insights from Colin and Aaron, along with how this all relates to Universal Design for Learning. And thank you for listening to this conversation on the think UDL podcast. Thank you to our sponsor Texthelp, a global technology company, helping people all over the world to understand and to be understood, it has led the way in creating innovative technology for the workplace and education sectors, including K 12. right through to higher education for the last three decades. Discover their impact at text dot help forward slash learn more, that’s learn m o r e. So I’d like to welcome my two guests. Colin Ozeki and Aaron Lanou, Aaron and Colin, welcome to the Think UDL podcast.
Aaron Lanou 03:49
Thanks so much for having us.
Colin Ozeki 03:50
Thank you. It’s great to be here. Thanks.
Lillian Nave 03:52
I’m going to go right in with my first question that I asked all my guests and I guess Aaron, why don’t you start with your answer. But what is it that makes you a different kind of learner?
Aaron Lanou 04:05
Yeah, great. I love this question. I love hearing how the people you interview answer it to. I think there’s a lot of things that I need to learn, like my best one that comes to mind is like the idea of like connections like, I need to know how this new thing is kind of related to other things about that topic and how it fits in with it or maybe changes what I know and I, I sort of can’t really move on until that’s been reconciled. But interestingly, I’m actually the kind of learner in general that school was designed for. I’m a white neurotypical, non disabled male who can sit still when I’m asked to and listen for long periods of time and take notes and I’m pretty organized naturally. And I’ve of course come to discover through my time as a special education teacher and in learning about Universal Design for Learning and leading UDL workshops. Just how much variability there is across students, and how schooling was not designed. With a range of different ways of processing and learning and interacting with the world that exists in any population. And along with that, importantly, it’s, you know, I, when I talk about this I, it’s important to mention that the way I learned that I just described is not normal or right or better or correct. It’s just a match for how school tends to operate. Yeah. So if the question is that really asking, like, what makes me a different kind of learner than the neuro normative expectations that are dominant in our school system? I’d say not a whole lot.
Lillian Nave 05:31
That’s great. That’s a very good answer to preface. You know, how we understand learner variability. And, yeah, a good description of what I’ve also encountered all of my schooling as well. So our I think we parallel in what has happened when I’ve learned about UDL, same sort of eye opening experience. So Colin, how about you, what makes you a different kind of learner?
Colin Ozeki 06:00
So this is interesting to talk about, because Aaron spent a lot of time just mentioning that he is like, the ideal model student that most school systems were designed for. But a lot of schools aren’t necessarily designed for me as, as, as an Asian male autistic person, like because there are lots of kinds of people in the USA, people of different genders and like ethnicities, and your types and all that. So me as an autistic person, I need to get up and take frequent breaks. And I like to ask a lot of clarifying questions, which a lot of teachers they find super annoying. And I sometimes don’t understand directions the way teachers want me to, and I need to detail fill in for me, oh, boy, the communication breakdown between teachers and students. They were very, very common because of a different newer types and the different ways we think and communicate. So being autistic has considerably affected how I learn and hi participate in the classroom. Because many class environments don’t support diversity of learners a different communication needs and styles like me. Yeah. Universal design for learning should be universal. Yeah, I’m just gonna heavily I’m only lined up for like four or five times universal design for learning should be universal. And that includes supporting and including different neuro types.
Lillian Nave 07:31
Yes, absolutely agreed on my part there. So Aaron, how is it then that you and Colin got to know each other and, and by the way, I should say, I learned from you guys from a webinar you did. And you came and spoke at my university? And I was like, I’ve got to have you on the podcast. But can you tell tell me about that, how you met and how you came together? Yeah,
Aaron Lanou 08:00
we were really happy to be able to present to App State community. And actually that the presentation that Colin and I did, there is the sort of culmination of a very interesting sort of story of how we know each other and what we’ve done over our years of knowing each other. And the differences that caught my eye are talking about about the relative ways that each of us learn in our experiences in school is sort of at the crux of all that. So please call in jump in, interrupt me if you have any memories or perspectives I’m missing. But but but in a nutshell, Colin and I know each other originally from a school called PS 32, in Brooklyn, New York. Years ago, I was a fifth grade teacher at the school and Colin was a student, a fifth grade student in the classroom next door. And we were both part in our own way of a program called the ASD nest, which is an inclusion program for autistic students that’s in the New York City public schools here in collaboration with New York University. And so I knew Colin, I wasn’t his teacher, but I knew of him. I believe he knew of me. But years later, while Colin was in a different ASNs school in high school, at that time, I was a staff developer at New York University working to sort of support the ACNs schools. One of Collins teachers recommended that he reached out to me as like a source for a research project he was doing that best I remember was about like ableism and conceptions of disability. And I was so taken aback at the like level of questions that Colin was asking that I was like, you know, these are like, graduate level kind of like questions about grappling with identity and disability that this high school student is, is sharing with me and having known Colin from from elementary school to I was just so taken aback at like, the thought and insight he had in this topic. And so I invited Colin to personal to me. Yeah, no, it was it was fabulous conversation. I was I really was struck by it. So one of the thing things we did as DNS every year as we had this annual Fall kickoff conference. And Colin was our inaugural student speaker, I invited him to be a part of that event. And his speech was very well received to a group of about like 500k to 12 educators from across New York City. And for a first speaking gig, not too shabby. Yeah. Wow. insightful, funny. Practical, it was great. And can I just say connected over the years after that he did some more work at NYU and presented to teachers and speech therapists. He actually worked with our team at ASNs at NYU is a student student worker when he was a an undergrad at NYU. And, and then he did some guest lectures at my courses I taught at NYU years later. And after the last one, I just remember thinking like, this is the last class I’m teaching of this variety. It was great to have you again, great to be connected, but we got to keep this train going somehow. And that’s what led to co planning and developing this, this workshop.
Colin Ozeki 11:04
You know, Aaron, it’s really interesting that you mentioned the whole ASD kickoff thing, I remember speaking to 600 teachers when I was in 11th grade. And that was like, a great big moment of pride for me, because like, how many students can really claim to have done that, like a student lecturing teachers, that’s kind of crazy, like, let alone 600 of them. And I think it was that project and being given these opportunities for view that actually set me on this current path I’m on today as a special education teacher. That’s a big thing. Eric didn’t mention, by the way, I have a special education teacher now. Imagine an autistic special education teacher, how many of those do you see because I haven’t met very many of them. Like I think I met one like very recently. But like, in all the schools, like everywhere I’ve been to like I’ve met hundreds of teachers, I’ve only met one autistic special education teacher, I’m adding to that number. I’m an I am a ASD nest special education teacher, in fact, which is really cool, because I was a nest student. And I get to be that teacher and a program that basically made me the person who I am today, it’s such a cool opportunity to come back and continue to cultivate this, this inclusive community that basically created me and help me become who I am. I even got to speak at the 20th anniversary for the ASD NES like a celebration for it. And, you know, I got shouted out by the mayor of New York and a chance to the Board of Education, which, again, doesn’t happen to many people. That’s kind of novel. And I think Aaron even joked that I can’t get fired up because the chancellor the Board of Education I shot Yeah, yeah. I don’t think that’s actually true. But I will remember that I, I will remember that. So yeah, I just wanted to mention that it’s super huge for me to be able to come back as an autistic educator to be able to share my unique experiences as an autistic person, to not only autistic students that desperately needs this perspective, but also to neurotypical students that would never get this kind of perspective otherwise. So I’m speaking not just based on my experiences as an autistic student, but also as an autistic educator today. So it’s a real privilege to be here today. Thank you. Well,
Lillian Nave 13:24
absolutely. And I’ve learned so much already from for both of you, that I, I think your voices are so important that now other folks can hear about what you had to say. And you brought something new to me that I didn’t know about. And, and it really has changed the way I think about communication. So I wanted to ask you, and, Aaron, I’ll start off with you for this question. What differences are there and how autistic people communicate with each other in a homogenous group. So of all the members of that group are autistic. And when you have another homogenous group where neurotypical people communicate with each other, in that homogenous group of neurotypical people, Aaron, I, you told me before, and this is like, No, I, we got to get this
Aaron Lanou 14:16
out of this question and happy to sort of twist it a little bit. I would say that, in general, neurotypical people or non autistic people specifically, tend to when they see each other for the first time asked, like, Hey, how are you? Which is to say that we ask questions we don’t want the answer to. We do that a lot. We also, when we get invited to something that we don’t want to do, we often say things like, oh, yeah, you know, I think about it. Which is to say that we give indirect responses to questions that were asked. And though we here right now are on this audio only podcast so you can’t see me gesticulating wildly, but we move our hands a lot and make faces when we do Talk and we generally expect people to watch our hands and our faces, and hear our tone of voice to figure out what we really mean, instead of just paying attention to the words that we say. So all of this is to say that generally neurotypical people, non autistic people, we don’t have to think about our communication tendencies, right that most neurotypical people who heard those couple of examples can relate to them, but probably don’t think of their communication in that way. And that’s because this is deemed to be quote, unquote, normal by society, right? But essentially, we do tend to be indirect, abstract and send messages non verbally, even though that’s not how most people would define typical communication or typical communication.
Colin Ozeki 15:42
Yes, yes, yes. And me as an autistic person, I do not share this default communication mindset that Aaron and many, many other wonderful people in this world today have today. So I’m just gonna contrast Aaron’s three examples that he gave with like my own autistic perspective that I’m sure many autistic listeners will also be able to relate to. So for example, how are you? i Okay, first of all, that’s very nondescript. The like, it used to, like, confuse me for a while, what people really wanted to know what they said they’re like, how are you? Like, I don’t know. Is it like, what did you do today? Or like, how are you feeling? I don’t know, I spent a lot of time thinking about it. And sometimes I actually try to answer like, oh, you know, I’m kind of feeling not great. Because like, didn’t do as well the test says or wanted to whatever, or something like that. And then they wouldn’t even acknowledge it. It’s really Yeah, sure. Whatever. Anyways, I Hey, can you grab me this, this this book from the shelf or whatever? Like? A lot of people they just ask, like, without really caring about the answer, like Aaron said, and see what I ask how are you I genuinely like would like to know, like, how are you? Because if I don’t really care to know, I’ll just be like, Yo, what’s up? Or are you okay? Not even to us? I’m just like, Yo, you know, just like something that doesn’t necessarily invite a response. That’s one thing. The second thing that I’ll think about it, I’ll think about it, that’s like a nice way of saying like, no, for a lot of people, not for me, I don’t really say like, I’ll think about it, unless I’m like, actually genuinely thinking about it, I’ll just be like, I don’t really feel like going, I don’t want to go. Sometimes I might even be a bit like blood about it. I mean, I probably shouldn’t be as Bloody as sometimes, I’m kind of better about it nowadays, in my opinion, but like, sometimes I’d be like, you know, like, this guy’s coming. I don’t really like that guy, I kind of don’t get along with this, I don’t really want to go, you know, or stuff like that, you know, usually would go when there’s this other thing I’d really rather do instead. So I’m gonna go do that instead, I really have don’t have much shame, and just being honest and straightforward about how I feel instead of just like, you know, like, I’ll think about it. Because so that’s another thing. Oh, this is a this last one is a big one with nonverbal communication. Everyone was talking about like hand gestures and all sorts of stuff, there’s a very big thing that scares a lot of autistic people, me included. And that’s eye contact. A lot of autistic, not autistic, a lot of your typical people, they see lack of eye contact as like lack of interest, or like you’re not really listening or paying attention to them. But to counter countered this example, I point towards this very podcast right now. Are we looking at each other, Ma’am, sir? Like, are we looking at each other? No, we’re not looking at each other. But you can tell that I’m clearly responding to you right now. There are very many ways to tell a cipher iContact that we are active and engaged in the conversation. I don’t know about you, but I think I started very engaged right now. I’m like so into this. I think overall, there’s like a lot more emphasis on like, direct this and like, emphasis on like the spoken word itself in artistic communication. And that’s something I want to highlight here with just like three of many, many examples that exist out there.
Lillian Nave 19:08
Thank you. Yes. So though, I really have appreciated the way both of you have tackled the communication, especially with the difference between neurotypical and autistic specifically. And as both of you were talking, I want to add here, so many of the things you mentioned have to do with one of the classes I teach about intercultural competence. And one of our goals in that course is about learning about other ways of verbal and nonverbal communication. And one of the things I even talked about with my students this week is that whole eye contact, Id idea and I asked my students how many of you were told or or somehow got the message as children that you needed to communicate respect by looking somebody in the eye, and majority of the students, you know, raise their hands. And so we get in culture ated. And sometimes we don’t know it, like sometimes a parent will say, Look me in the eye, you know, this is important. And sometimes it’ll be some other nonverbal cues about, you know, where you should look. And that’s very cultural too, because there are other cultures, where looking someone in the eye is actually aggressive, right? You, you want to maybe keep your eyes down to show that you’re showing respect without, like, facing that right? Without showing disdain or something like that. So, so much of this Yeah, has a lot of cultural references for me as well.
Aaron Lanou 20:46
It’s a it’s a great point, too. And though, I think not, everyone is sort of aware that like, when you say culture, I’m imagining you also mean like autistic culture is a culture that exists that is important to know about and know about things that might be different or new to people who are not part of that culture, right. And I think many times people might associate culture with like a region or from a part of the world or part of the country. But I think it’s just important to name it, while we’re saying it that that there is an artistic culture and a communication style, though not universal of every single person in that culture. shares the same sort of principles that you were just describing when you’re talking about any kind of intercultural communication interaction, right?
Lillian Nave 21:33
Absolutely. And that’s so linked to what I do. And yeah, you don’t have to go to another state or another country, to find a different culture, you can go, as I tell my students, you can go to your friend’s house in fifth grade, and nobody takes their shoes off, and your family takes the shoes off. That’s a different culture to like, it’s just a different way of doing or being right. So that gets us into actually my next question, which is about exactly about this, the double empathy problem. And I wanted to ask, really about this, what is the double empathy problem? And in which kind of group does this appear? And
Aaron Lanou 22:11
the double empathy problem is what formed really like the bones of Collins? In my presentation, we thought about how do we share sort of our relative experiences in school around this idea of like neuro diverse communication communication across neuro types, and the double empathy problem really provided a really helpful framework for that. But it’s just an important concept for folks to know about in general, I think. So the double empathy problem was developed by a researcher named Damien Milton. He’s autistic himself. And the double empathy problem helps to try to explain the challenges that are sometimes arise when people of different neuro types interact. And specifically, it challenges the faulty and long held notion that autistic people like quote, unquote, lack empathy, or have quote unquote, impaired social communication or social skills, and recognizes that if there are challenges with empathy, that these challenges are shared, basically. So there’s a quote that Colin and I share in the presentation that I think says a lot where he says Dr. Milton says, If it’s true that autistic people often lack insight into non autistic perceptions and culture, it is equally the case that non autistic people lack insight into the minds and culture of autistic people. So what often happens is autistic people, because they’re in the numerical minority, frankly, are expected to think about neurotypical people and we interact and communicate and sort of change their behavior accordingly. But unfortunately, all too often neurotypical people tend to think about our own social interaction, our own communication as being right and correct in the right way, but not do the work of thinking about how autistic people think, communicate differently. And what you mentioned about these, like different groups and how they interact. Dr. Milton and others have researched this. And in sort of one research structure, what they found was, they had a group of non autistic adults entirely, a group of only autistic adults, and then a mixed group of autistic and non autistic adults. And they were looking at how these groups shared information. And what the findings showed was that the only autistic group was just as effective at sharing information as the just non autistic group. And the only group that had a breakdown in communication was this mixed group of autistic and non autistic people. And so you have to ask yourself, if a group of just autistic people can share information just as well as a group of just neurotypical or non autistic people, then where does this problem of miscommunication really lie? It can’t be the narrative that exists unfortunately, all too often that autistic people don’t community Eat correctly, have impaired social skills, don’t empathize and all of that garbage. And so that’s that that framework and then then that research, and the way of thinking about it is what helped us sort of share our stories and talk about some of the strategies that we offered in our workshop.
Lillian Nave 25:15
Well, Aaron, when you were talking, I did think about the way that a group of people will communicate, and is understood within that group. And it made me think a lot about like deaf culture. And I know, you’ve mentioned that before, too. So if you have a group of deaf individuals, that that can communicate with American Sign Language, or whichever sign language, there’s not a problem, not a problem at all, it’s when you have that mixed group. And that gave me a really good kind of example, for me to think about this as well. And the same is true. With disco. There’s disability culture, as well. And I’ve gotten the chance to interview the head of the Disability Cultural Center at Syracuse, and that’s a, you know, another thing that’s flipping the script, so to speak, and talking about what are the positives, about just differences and people? And so I think it’s important that we do see that this is not it’s not negative, right? This is a strength based and talent focused approach. And I just really appreciate how you’ve brought that to my attention. So so when you say that there’s this double empathy problem, you’ve given a couple ideas is what to do when we have this really, it’s when it’s a heterogeneous group, right of autistic and neurotypical people. That’s, that’s where the communication breakdown is. So you have said, to lead with curiosity, and why do you say that it is so important to lead with curiosity, when you’re
Aaron Lanou 27:00
calm, I came up with this as sort of like a starting point strategy for our kind of practical takeaways from this exploration. And really, it’s because curiosity is very powerful. One quick example, I just really appreciate about the idea of curiosity. And the power of it is Carol Gray, who is the developer of social stories that many folks might know about, in her latest update of social stories. She defines this new foundational philosophy that she calls social humility. And one of the I think, five tenets of social humility, as a precursor to even like thinking about writing a social story, is to be curious. And she says, Curiosity is confusion with a good attitude. So what I love about that is, right, when you are maybe confronted, for the first time, with someone who communicates differently than you, there can be some automatic judgment that comes along with this newness. And if we can, we can hold that a little bit and be confused, but be confused with a good attitude, right? The open to this newness, that’s a really important starting point, that can help us in any kind of as we’re talking about neurodiverse communication. And I just had like a quick like, non example of like, what not to do for my own time and teaching. Yeah, but as I mentioned, I was a fifth grade teacher, I remember doing this, this, this activity where students were asked in part to write about their favorite book. And I class I taught was an inclusive class with autistic and non autistic students. And one of my students was autistic just wasn’t writing. And so as a teacher, you go through the, you know, get your start spinning, what do I do how to respond? And so I just tried to, you know, prompt him a little bit like, hey, why don’t you write about your favorite book? And he said, I don’t have one. And so I thought, oh, gosh, what do I do? Okay, is this a behavioral thing is this is what is he pushing back? What’s this about? So I just said, oh, you know, what? I see you read all the time, I know you have a favorite book, but just, you know, you’ve got to have one, just give it some thought and then start writing. And you said, I don’t have a favorite book. And so at this point, again, like, you know, teach your brain is like, how do I respond? Support? What do I do? And I thought, Okay, why don’t we do this? You just tell me what your favorite book is. And I’ll write it down. And I’ll start the writing for you. And you can take it from there. And he said, I don’t have favorites. And so granted, the you know, you can tell from the tone, like it got a little escalated. And so it led to, you know, not super productive conversation, and we had to resolve it later. But what was really important for me to learn and recognize what I only learned later, and what I wish I’d known in the moment. So this student, this student I was working with, didn’t have favorite anything. He didn’t have a favorite food. He didn’t have a favorite color. He found favorites incredibly stressful.
Colin Ozeki 29:57
So this is where I come in as an author a stick person that can maybe relate to this autistic students experiences here. Now I don’t speak for every autistic person when I’m with what I’m about to describe here. But I would not be surprised if a higher percentage of autistic people could relate to this more so than like neurotypical people. Let me just preface this by saying that there are hundreds 1000s, or even millions of different books and movies and TV shows and podcasts and every kind of imaginable media out there. You know, and I might have consumed like a small fraction of those. Like, there’s, there’s so much and there’s so much to see, right? Like, there’s so much to consider. So you’re telling me that, when he asked me about my favorite anything you want me to wade through the hundreds of things that I have read, or watched or listened to? Or at my life, or you want me to pick the single best one? Out of everything? Like, can you imagine the number of 100 in your head? Like, can you imagine like 100, anything like that? That is a lie, I’m choosing one out of like, lots of that, like, there’s so many things to consider, like, maybe the way I’m putting it to you sounds like a much bigger deal than it is to a lot of people. But the reason why I’m describing it like this, it is exaggerated, absurd matter, is because I’m making a point, that this is really what goes through many people’s minds, and that everyone thinks differently. And for some people picking a favorite is much harder, then
Aaron Lanou 31:38
I wish I had that perspective as a teacher that Colin just shared, because the story I just shared is not leading with curiosity that’s like leading with this, like, you know, self centered certainty. That was super off base and not helpful. But leading with curiosity could have looked like Oh, Okay, interesting. You don’t have favorites? Can you tell me more about that, just to invite what this student’s perspective was, right. And if we gotten to a place where he was able to share that, like, I don’t have favorites, it’s too hard or stressful or something similar to maybe to what Colin just shared, it would have been a really quick fix for me to say, okay, in that case, can you just choose one of the books that you happen to like a lot, doesn’t have to be your favorite. It doesn’t have to be this right? This pinnacle, this among, above all other things, the task that he was doing in class just had to be a book he cared about. So for neurotypical people, non autistic people, specifically, this idea of leading with Curiosity has to do with being genuinely open to different ways of thinking and communicating. And oftentimes, it just requires you to pause. That’s the biggest part. And just ask yourself, like, Okay, what’s the perspective here that I might be lacking? I was sharing this little real time example with Colin a little bit earlier that I went to dinner with my folks. Last night, my parents were in the city. And we went to this place where there’s lots of little shared plates. And there’s like, you know, some hummus and there’s some roasted cauliflower, and there’s beet salad. And you probably between four people eat 12 different little things. And I was almost going to ask my mom, which one was your favorite? And I thought of our conversation that we’re having right now. And I stopped myself. And instead I asked, What are your highlights? And my mom just said, Oh, well, I like the beats. The cauliflower is really good, too. I haven’t had this one yet. But maybe that’ll be good. And I just thought to myself, like, why do we frame things? Why is it just assumed? In conversations like that, it has to be one, it has to be the absolute best? And how much more sort of inclusive? Is it to just ask, what are the highlights? Yeah.
Colin Ozeki 33:52
I liked the I was telling Aaron that I really liked this way of phrasing things. What are some highlights out of instead of what are some of your What are your favorites. And the reason for that is because favorites, puts it in like a very special unique place. And I feel like there’s like a little bit more pressure than is due or intended for people like Aaron student over here. But highlights has a lot less pressure because it’s more just like, you know, like, it’s not like an absolute pinnacle. Like a favorite. It’s just like a nice thing. You know, like, I like I’m sure anyone can easily list like foods that they like or foods that you dislike and highlight isn’t really that much different for now. It’s like Oh, I like this food. I like this food. So these this is the kind of thinking that I would call for any kind of person to do not just neurotypical people like Aaron but also I could be thinking of waste like my phrasing that way as well. Like, I went there and shared that story. I even thought hey, I should start using that word highlights do that’s that’s really interesting. I like it a lot. Yeah,
Lillian Nave 34:57
you’re this idea about curious It also links into intercultural work too, because you’re in a different situation, again, doesn’t have to be overseas, it’s just in a different situation. And our understandings of how things are supposed to go, are based on our backgrounds, right? And, and, and the way things were taught to us, right. So that, like that pinnacle idea, or the favorite is, it’s in my mind is more like the competition kind of thing. Something has to be better than something else, right. And that’s a little stressful. And think about how competition focused. A lot of education is who’s the top student who you know, who has the best GPA? That’s what’s going to get a scholarship. And it’s very competition focused rather than cooperation, focus, and and anyway, so we don’t realize that so much of that is ingrained, right, you didn’t realize you were kind of creating competition for the students to determine what their favorite book is. And that’s just one way of doing things. Right. Yeah,
Aaron Lanou 36:10
it’s not the only that’s a great example. And I think framing it in terms of competition is very powerful. And I think most teachers in most classrooms, competition is probably not like high on their list of values in terms of what made them a teacher. And so to frame it that way, and to challenge us to think of the the interactions we have that could be boiled down to sort of being someone’s got to win and someone’s got to lose, or someone’s gonna be better and worse, is is a good it’s a helpful challenge, I think to educators.
Lillian Nave 36:48
So you say start, let’s start with curiosity. I think that is a fad. Fabulous, as I learned watching TED last, so we should be curious and not judgmental from Ralph Waldo Emerson. So I have enjoyed that pop culture reference in the last couple of years. That’s one of the things that I saw when I watched the show Ted lassoed. So I’ll put that in the in the notes. But be curious, not judgmental. But there’s more, you just said to start with curiosity. So Colin, I’m gonna throw it this to you. And you talk about after that curiosity, you talked about sharing perspectives without judgment. How can we do that?
Colin Ozeki 37:31
All right, so I think we, as human beings, it’s in human nature, it’s no need to feel ashamed about it just as long as we acknowledge it, right. We rush to judgment and jump to conclusions all the time. What if we lead with curiosity, then we’ll be in a mindset where we could consider others perspectives while sharing our own in a respectful manner. So I am going to share a little story from my schooling experiences here. This is a story I have for when I was in the 12th grade, I was working on a computer which was turned away from the front of the classroom where my teacher is, so it was turned away where like, my teacher could see the computer monitor. And I wanted to make sure that I finished this assignment before the period ended. So I was really focused and totally in the zone I was that day. So that my teacher she didn’t address this the classroom she says, All right, everyone, listen up. And I think oh, okay, sure. I’ll listen. You know, I thought that as I continue working, typing away the keyboard, and she’s like, Hey, Khalid, I need you to listen. You know, the teacher, she reads this repeats this again, louder with a third tone. And I’m like, Oh, wait, but I ain’t listen to this. No, no, no, no. I need you to listen. What put put, put when I am listening, what do you mean, I’m listening. This kind of back and forth goes on for a while. And all like all the while I’m getting more confused, she’s getting more confused, I’m getting more frustrated, she’s getting more frustrated. And it all builds and stacks on top of each other until I eventually threw my hands up in the air and just stormed out of the classroom. Like having reached my limit, like what was going on here. Later, after class, the teacher came to talk to me about what happened. And she didn’t come to berate me for not following simple instructions. Like I imagined many other teachers would. Instead, she took a different approach where she, we taught us just now she approached me with curiosity, started a dialogue and asked what happened. So I explained myself, you know, you said to listen, so I was I followed the instructions to the best of my abilities. And when I phrased it that way, it was like According to pin drop, this is where we identify where the disconnect was. The teacher realize when she said, for everyone to listen up, she also meant for the students to stop when they were doing, be quiet and look up to her. So she knew they were paying attention. Now this and apply detail that’s clear as day for neurotypical people. And I’m sure many of you listeners like, wait, you weren’t doing that? No, I wasn’t, I just, she said to listen. So I did. Like I took the structure to face value, though. I didn’t quite get the obvious memo for Julie. Sorry, Dr. McKinney, you’re awesome. Let’s talk about let’s have coffee, guys, sometimes, you gave me a really funny story to tell it like think back to today. But it was kind of funny how we cleared this up. So me and my teacher, we came to an agreement, the teacher said that she would make a simple change to how she addressed the classroom. Instead of just saying, like, everyone listened, she would say, Everyone be quiet, stop the conversations, and listen to me. And just like that, with a little bit more specificity, I was out doing it. I was getting gold stars on a board and everything. We didn’t have gold stars in high school, I would have loved
Lillian Nave 41:20
to got him. You know,
Colin Ozeki 41:23
I wasn’t exactly a star studded either, I could have been a little better. But I did get better structures. All it took was for us to communicate, understand each other’s intentions as for us to make a small change to behavior on both the teachers part and my part and understanding each other.
Aaron Lanou 41:41
I love so many things about that story in that example, one of which is the teacher being able to and willing to be the one to make the change. And I think it’s such a great example of, of this exempt this this strategy of like sharing perspectives without judgment that, you know, we talked about being curious, which is being open. But sometimes that leaves people feeling like oh, I don’t get a say in this, I just have to listen and be open and, and whatever everyone who anyone else thinks is what goes. And this is sort of a next step of that, like we Yes, of course, be open, be open to new perspectives, and different experiences. But that doesn’t mean we don’t all get our own sort of say in things and so, so to share perspectives without judgment is really about still being able to offer your side your perspective, in this case, the teacher offering their need, well, I really do need you to turn around and not be doing your work. That is something she was able to communicate. But as Colin said it wasn’t laden with and you what you did is bad or wrong, and you weren’t listening to me and you were disobeying me, it was very matter of fact, and very clear. And so all this is, is when we make room for other perspectives, and we asked that question, as Colin said, as our as our starting point, we can still say what we need to say, but we share our perspective with a consideration of the other person’s perspective that we’ve just learned. And that’s what the teacher did. That’s what Colin did in this interaction, right. And that in this case, led to a great outcome. Right, she led with curiosity asked, responded by sharing her perspective on what she needed. And they found this mutually beneficial solution, which is just mock chef’s kiss.
Lillian Nave 43:21
Yes, absolutely. And I can think of so many ways we can use this in our teaching, if a lot of my listeners are our faculty and, and thinking about the diversity of students in the classroom. So my next question is kind of the third part that you’ve showed me, and I think is absolutely fantastic. We’ve got being curious, not so judgmental. And then you talk about striking a balance in communication. So what do you mean, when you say that we should try to strike a balance in communication? And, Colin, I’ll start with you on this one.
Colin Ozeki 44:04
Okay, all right. Let me let me let me start properly. Let me start. Okay, this is a great question. But before we answer this question, I just want to start off by sharing another one of my fancy funny little High School stories here for you. This story starts with a simple statement. I hate loudspeakers. Well, okay, I think a lot of people don’t like them but like I especially hate them like they’re for like many sensory reasons, right? They’re They’re super loud and annoying and ear green. And there’s also like little social connotation attached to them that if you’re if your name is called and a name like to come over to the main offensive zone thing, like it kind of feels like you’re about to be in trouble somehow, like, the principal’s gonna chew you out for like, I don’t know, Let’s thicken that gum and like the incorrect way to trash can at one time or something. That’s what they get. And that’s basically how the story starts. The Did you know the last speaker goes like Carlos Zeki come to the main office? And I was a little bit spooked. Like, oh, I’m in trouble. But then I remembered it’s not Hollywood, it’s real life and I’ll probably be okay. You know, like, this is the beginning of ninth grade. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m meeting like my, my principal assistant principal, whoever was doing the first time. I have nothing to worry about. If I’m just polite and do my thing. Like go about our business, everything should be okay. So I make my way through the hallways and to the main office. You know, I I opened a door my assistant principal is sitting at the desk like completely anticipated me she has like, like, really warm and professional smile on her face. And I didn’t know her that well, but she seemed nice enough. Like, you know what? Yeah. Oh, let’s get to know her more, because I’m sure I’ll be seeing her face again for like, the next four years of my life. So I just cut to the chase and I started to ask her. What do you want? At just like that professional smile turned upside down in record time. She was like, suddenly flipping out at me like sand slamming a desk. How dare you say sorry, so rude to me. Okay, no, that’s not actually how it happened. But like, she definitely wasn’t happy. She was like, Caitlyn. really rude sir. Like, okay, I can’t I wish I could remember the exact way she said it, I don’t think could quite do justice. I’m Excel way funnier than it should be. But like, she was definitely, like, legitimately upset and like saying that what I said was really rude. Like, what do you want? And I was super confused. Like, you call me to the main office because you wanted something right? Like, what do you want, like, this kind of thing happens the autistic and neurotypical people all the time were no one your type says something one way. Other door type says the other way, like in this case, is the autistic person saying one thing and then their neurotypical people take it another way, and someone gets really upset. The double empathy problem basically talks about this whole phenomenon. But Aaron here, he has this really interesting framework for thinking about our differences of communication, and acknowledging every problem and how we can shift our mentality and mindset to be more accommodating and inclusive and understanding of different communication styles so that we can resolve these kinds of misunderstandings.
Aaron Lanou 47:29
Thank you. Yeah. So the framework I’ve come up with is called the balance challenge. And when I talked about it with Colin, for the first time, he said, Is that some kind of tick tock thing? So no, it’s not some kind of tick tock thing? I actually, no, I did not say Are you crazy. But the balance challenge is, it’s like a conceptual tool that I developed. And there’s a little visual to go along with it, that we obviously can’t see here. But maybe we can share information about it in the in the notes, or what have you if people want to look at it, too. But it’s this conceptual tool to help us grapple with nuances and decision making is the idea behind it. And so basically, that we don’t have the visual in front of us now, if you picture like an old car thermostat dial where it was like, all the way, blue on the left and all the way red on the right, and you write you actually spin the dial to adjust the temperature in the car. These days, everything is tapping on a touchscreen, but you use to actually like turn something physical, right all the way to the left. If you really want to crank up the AC all the way to the right, it’s dead of winter. But what I’m what happened is all you crank it all the way to the right in the dead of winter, and in five minutes, you’re sweating, and you don’t need it that hot. So you dial it down just a little bit, you don’t turn it all the way to cold, you just kind of nudge it a little bit in the other direction. And the idea behind the balance challenge is very similar to that, that, instead of thinking about cold and hot, I like to think about different sort of decision making points that you can make that are opposites. But that you don’t have to sort of do like a light switch, I’m either doing it or I’m doing the opposite. You can nudge things a little bit. So the the balance challenge that Colin and I talked about, is if you imagine instead of cold on the left, it’s stick with my way of communicating. And instead of hot on the right, it’s adapt to other people’s way of communicating. And just like the dial in the car, it’s not a light switch, you have more than just two choices this or that, even though it might feel that way sometimes. And so basically it’s it’s sort of challenging us to recognize that we all have a role to play in figuring out how we adjust our dial when we’re communicating with someone. Especially have a different neuro type in this situation. So I don’t just stick with my way no matter who I’m speaking with, but I also don’t abandon everything about the way I speak. When I’m talking to someone else, I have to find that sweet spot in between. And for some people, that is a slight adjustment for others, it might be a more dramatic adjustment. But what that allows us to do is really to honor the fact that especially for neurotypical folks, for non autistic folks, we’ve been expecting autistic people to dial that up all the way. That’s what social skills training is. That’s what the definition and criteria of autism is sort of founded on the idea that they have to change to be more like the way we do things. And and there is a reality that autistic people and Colin referenced this some earlier too, that autistic people, it may benefit you to adjust the dial a little bit to and adjust your own way of thinking. But really, the onus is on non autistic folks to really challenge the way that we think and not be stuck all the way on the, I’m just going to talk how I talk because this is right and normal. And instead, to kind of notice things a little bit and be like, I gotta be open to this, this is different. And I can make a slight adjustment that’s going to help this interaction be clearer and smoother. And so Colin can actually sort of, you know, connect the dots for us and talk about how this can help us think about that uncomfortable interaction with his assistant principal.
Colin Ozeki 51:15
Hope foyer. That’s one of my earliest memories from high school, actually, it’s so funny thinking about it now. So let’s come back to that story. Let’s use Aaron’s a brilliant little balance style here, the balance challenge, let’s think of it through the balanced way of thinking as Erin frames it. Initially, me and my sister principal, we both remain anchored in place, but their own style of communicating with neither have a single reason to change anything, you know, I would ask like, what do you want, and the assistant principal think I was being rude. But for some reason, the burden was placed on me to completely turn and do a hard right or left, depending on how you see it. Like I’d like go on one extreme, and completely overhaul how we communicate what our assistant principal was convinced that I was to include in Iraq, and I’m the one that needs to change. But let’s consider what he says in principle, lead to curiosity instead. This is where we continue to story and I’m glad to say it, we have it has a happy ending, because I actually have a pretty good relationship with my assistant principal yet. Because the assistant principal eventually did leave a curiosity. You know, later in the day, and my sister principal, she came up to me she’s like, Hey, she wants she wants to talk about what happened earlier. Instead of just chewing me out or lecturing me for being rude to her. She decided to ask my perspective, like, Well, why why did I say what I did? Like, why? Why did you say what you did? And thus, we shared perspectives without judgment. I explained that the assistant principal clearly wanted me for something. So I mean, what else is there to ask? Like, of course, they’re gonna ask like, what do you want? Like, does that not make sense? Like, what’s the problem here? Like, there’s no root intentions here. And meanwhile, my sister principal, she explained that for many people, what do you want sounds confrontational and condescending. And she did acknowledge that I didn’t mean it in that way and that we were good, but you know, the connotation is still there. So what we ultimately took away from this whole interaction is that next time I asked what she wanted, she would know that I meant with only the sincere intentions. What also This prompted me to think and consider other ways that I could ask like, what do you want without possibly coming off as rude because the English language is beautiful, they’re like 400 different ways to say any like of the same thing. So now it is kind of just as like, Yo, what’s up it’s what a great ubiquitous phrase you can say it as a filler phrase or anything but I think especially like people can say what’s up to me like a hey, what do you want because like Hey, what’s up what’s going on man? Like it’s you know, I it works a lot all the time it used has a very positive it warm and casual connotation to it that I really like so I actually feel like I came out better and yet to I think this is a principle came out better in the end because she is like, has like more of a mentality for like leading with curiosity, when someone says something that’s unexpected, like what do you want? So we both did a little bit of thinking and changing how we communicate. We both came up better and everyone was valid Dallas forever one
Aaron Lanou 54:32
Yeah, that’s a great example. And I the last thing you said there con sort of says it all, like you both sort of considered and took some responsibility for like do I might do I need to make an adjustment here. And that’s really what that idea of striking a balance in communication is about that. In these sort of, as you said, Billy and cross cultural or if we want to say like neuro diverse communication, or interactions. We all just commit to thinking to ourselves or asking ourselves like okay, how much am I expecting the other person and to change their communication for me, and challenge ourselves to strike a reasonable balance of adapting to someone else’s way of communicating.
Lillian Nave 55:14
It’s fantastic. It’s really something I am trying to keep in mind all the time. And now the there’s so many different ways we can misunderstand each other. And so being curious and not judgmental. Also an online communication, you know, you lose a lot of tone with that, too. It’s so important. So, okay, last couple of questions. And I’ll start with Colin on on this one. Because you have a call to action, what is your call to action? Or what parting advice do you have for anyone who wants to communicate better in a group with neurotypical and neurodivergent? So,
Colin Ozeki 55:52
today, we talked about three big concepts, right? We talked about leading a curiosity, sharing perspective without judgment, and striking a balance. These are all concrete actions, there’s a framework on the mindset that you all can take right now, to bridge the gap of communication between neurotypical and autistic people. But what’s the bigger picture here? What what do you do with all these newfound skills? And what what can you do to make a difference? I have three things for you. The first thing is to reject deficit based descriptions of autism. Because let’s make one thing very clear here. Autistic thinking is not an inferior way of thinking. I’m going to say this, again, autistic thinking is not an inferior way of thinking. I won’t say the third time, but I’m sure you get the point White House, I would love to say the third thing I’ll say this many times I need to, because people often think of intellectual disabilities as some sort of inability to do something. You know, in this case, the inability to communicate effectively said in heavy quotes here, but we just saw that is totally not true. People communicate differently across different neuro types to no one is inherently wrong. Well, my communication, clashes and communication happen. This isn’t because someone isn’t getting the program. It’s because there’s a mismatch in differing communication styles that are both equally valid. So number one, reject deficit based descriptions of autism. Number two, strike a balance without making sacrifices. The point is not to flip to the other side of the dial. It’s not about abandoning ourselves, and what’s true for us what’s natural or what’s comfortable. The goal is to reach a happy medium between how we communicate, and respecting how other people communicate. That’s true, but communication across ethnicity, languages, gender, nationality, and so one, strike a balance without making sacrifices. And number three, embrace the diversity the world has to offer. Having a diversity of perspectives and methods of communication is a fact of life. Instead of choosing a one size fits all communication package, that may not work well for everyone, we should be more flexible and understanding and how we communicate ourselves and how others portray themselves. So go out there with our newfound perspective, make new friends and communication connections that we wouldn’t have otherwise, the world is a beautiful place. Because of all the different ideas and perspectives we have. If we open our eyes and broaden our horizons, we can learn to truly appreciate the diversity this beautiful world has to offer. I’m autistic eras, neurotypical, we’ve learned a lot from each other. And I know you all can learn from hearing other perspectives too. So let’s all learn from each other and make the world a more inclusive place where everyone has a voice for all of us to hear. That’s my call to action. Take it with you.
Lillian Nave 59:11
I will and I hope I think our listeners will too. And I so appreciate it. And it just makes me so happy to hear you say it three times as many times as you want. And so the last thing I have to say is Aaron was like you know, shouldn’t we like connect this to UDL is like, oh yeah, we really should. I’m so excited about everything you had to say, especially about kind of the intercultural communication, too. I’m like, oh, yeah, this is a UDL podcast, we really should make some firm connections. And so I’ll ask you to end us out. Aaron with how do you see this discussion on neurodivergent and well, communication within a neuro diverse?
Aaron Lanou 59:53
I love that. I appreciate the connection to be made explicitly, though. I do think there’s a lot here First, I’ll just say because I didn’t want con To say it another, but I’ll just say artistic thinking is not inferior thinking, is it? I get it right count. Okay. But back to the question about university for learning. I think when I talk about it with folks, obviously, there’s the guidelines and principles that that are outlined in the framework. But there’s also these like themes that sort of emerged that I think are really helpful to talk about, that people can really understand and connect to immediately. And three themes I talked about anytime I talk about UDL that come right from the framework are the ideas of variability, and barriers and design. And the way those are connected in a nutshell, it’s my version of it is that we need to recognize the natural variability that exists across people naturally, all the time everywhere, we need to identify how barriers are created, when we don’t consider and plan for that variability. I mean, design, learning and environment is different from the start. So that’s the variability and barriers in design. And I think, based on our conversation here today, there’s a direct link to all of those ideas. The idea of if we assume we’re talking about non autistic neurotypical educators, being aware that there’s more variability in the way we interact and communicate that is natural and valid. That has to be your starting point. It is a natural difference that exists in a heterogeneous group of people, that’s just our starting point, we have to see that and recognize that and celebrate it, we have to recognize that the barriers are erected or created when we don’t recognize that when we see differences in communication style as being inferior, or as Colin shared some of his stories even being like rude, that create that that mindset creates barriers, that there is a one way to sort of communicate, to share an idea to interact to have a conversation. And if you’re not doing it that way, you’re doing it wrong. Right. That creates barriers for some people and for autistic people in in typical school settings. Unfortunately, there are these barriers that say like this is how you have a reciprocal conversation. And some of that might involve eye contact, like Colin was talking about or right speaking in the abstract instead of very directly. And so that, that that limits, access, in some ways to some students abilities to fully participate and be successful in school. And then that design piece is all about what do we do about it, we have to design differently from the start, we have to think differently about how we structure, even turning talks or right class discussion. Out of the recognition of this variability that exists, we have to honor and speak very plainly about the different ways that different people might want to or feel comfortable communicating in or interacting to completely normalize it as it should be, that this variation is going to exist. And I think if we talking mostly about educators here, but if we educators are able to think differently about the way that people lots of people, that range of people are going to communicate, interact. It can eliminate those barriers, and and allow people to be more successful from the start.
Lillian Nave 1:03:26
Absolutely, I love how you framed UDL. I mean, that’s I know you do some talks, too, on UDL, and lots of really great things so people can contact you, too. With the way you’ve kind of pulled that all together. And I was just so delighted to hear first of all, both of you talk and giving multiple perspectives about how to approach this sort of problem. And I just want to say thank you so much, you’ve given us so much to think about really great tools to go forward with. And I know our hour has come to a close. So I do want to say thank you very much, Erin and Colin, for joining me today on the think UDL podcast so
Aaron Lanou 1:04:08
much. It’s great conversation. Happy to be with you much for
Colin Ozeki 1:04:11
having us. It’s such a privilege and honor to be here today.
Lillian Nave 1:04:14
It was an honor. I’m just so excited to get this out for other people because it was a really great change and lens for me to use in my teaching too. So thank you you can follow the think EDL podcast on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to find out when new episodes will be released. And also see transcripts and additional materials at the think udl.org website. Thank you again to our sponsor textile Texthelp is focused on helping all people learn, understand and communicate through the use of digital education and accessibility tools. Texthelp and its people are working towards a world where difference disability and language are no longer barriers to learning and succeeding, with over 50 million users worldwide. The Texthelp suite of products includes Read and Write equates to an orbit note. They work alongside existing platforms such as Microsoft Office and G Suite and enable them to be integrated quickly into any classroom or workspace with ease. Texthelp has changed the lives of millions worldwide, and strives to impact the literacy and understanding of 1 billion people by 2030. Visit text dot help/learnmore that’s l earn m o r e to unlock unlimited learner potential. The music on the podcast was performed by the Odyssey quartet comprised of Rex Shepherd, David Pate, Bill Folwell and Jose Coachez an I am your host, Lillian Nave. Thank you for joining us on The think UDL podcast