Drama in Education with Louise Heeran Flynn

Welcome to Ep 165: Drama in Education with Louise Heeran Flynn. Dr Louise Heeran Flynn is an Assistant Professor in Teacher Education at the School of Education, Trinity College Dublin, the University of Dublin. She has recently published an article in the journal IJUDUDL which stands for International Journal of Universal Design and Universal Design for Learning. The article, “Breaking the Code – Using the (In)CLUDE framework to support the implementation of Universal Design for Learning 3.0 in the classroom through the use of Drama in Education,” delineates easy to use and creative ways to use principles learned in drama education that can be applied to any course whether in the humanities, arts and sciences or social sciences. And what I really appreciated in the article, which is linked in the resource section of this episode, is a helpful color coordinated chart of the UDL guidelines with a co-listed drama in education technique that correlates to each UDL consideration. And then she provides a useful acronym (In)CLUDE which asks each instructor to consider the Where, Who, What, Why and How of each learning environment and learning goal to implement these strategies. Start with the C=Context (Where and who?), L=Learning outcomes, U=UDL Guidelines, D=Drama in Education, E=Enact or put into action. Louise is also a fabulous storyteller and truly it is the stories that carry this conversation so I know you will enjoy this chat and be able to take away at least one more strategy in your teaching repertoire after hearing what is possible.

Resources

Contact Louise Heeran Flynn via LinkedIn and email: heeranfl@tcd.ie

Breaking the Code – Using the (In)CLUDE framework to support the implementation of Universal Design for Learning 3.0 in the classroom through the use of Drama in Education

For further reading on Professor Carmel O’Sullivan, explore more about her Drama Summer School, a world renowned, blended delivery modular programme designed specifically to support distance learners and international students. The course has been running for almost twenty years and attracts an international audience. It is provided for teachers in primary, secondary and tertiary education, youth leaders, early childhood educators, theatre in education practitioners and others with a professional interest in the arts in education. Further details are available at Drama in Education.

The UDL book that Louise Heeran Flynn mentioned is due out with Routledge end of 2026 or very early 2027. It is entitled – Realising Authentic Inclusive Education through Universal Design for Learning: Subject-specific Examples from the Classroom. The book will run through the various drama techniques but in the interim Jonothan Neelands’ book, although originally from the 90s is really useful. He updated it in 2015 – Neelands, J., & Goode, T. (2015). Structuring drama work: 100 key conventions for theatre and drama (3rd ed.). Cambridge University Press.

For more information on Dorothy Heathcote, read Cecily O’Neill’s book: O’Neill, C. (2014) Dorothy Heathcote on education and drama: Essential writings. Routledge.

1:10:03

Summary:

Dr. Louise Heeran Flynn’s presentation explores the how and why of integrating drama in education to support Universal Design for Learning (UDL) principles.

Core Concepts

The INCLUDE framework is a mnemonic for instructors to consider the context, learning outcomes, UDL guidelines, drama in education, and enactment.
Drama serves as an multimodal pedagogy that supports learner variability by engaging kinesthetic, cognitive, and affective channels.
Using drama can bridge “linguistic discontinuity” or the “hidden curriculum,” helping students navigate the different registers of interactional language versus formal academic language used in school settings.

Practical Strategies

Pedagogical Techniques

Freeze Frame: Students create silent snapshots of a vertices or a historical moment to represent knowledge.
Thought Tracking: An extension of freeze frames where students articulate what characters or objects might be thinking.
Action Clip: An students act out what happens next in a process or experiment to demonstrate understanding.
Mantle of the Expert: Placing learners into roles of experts to solve authentic, local issues through purposeful communication and purposeful task-based learning.
Forum Theater: A technique where class members can intervene in a ability to participate as they feel comfortable, observing and initially playing out scenarios related to the curriculum.
Hot Seating: A unique approach where the teacher acts as a la character or inanimate object (e.g., Marie Curie) or even an atom/nucleus within a science experiment to answer questions from students.

Implementation Advice

Reducing Educator Anxiety

Louise suggests adopting a “small d” drama approach where the focus remains on subject expertise rather than theatrical performance quality.
Educators should follow a “plus one” approach by starting with low-risk techniques like Hot Seating.
Successful implementation requires careful planning regarding timing—avoiding the too long or too short sessions—to help ensure students find value in their ability tointegrate these effectively into existing units.

Outline

Introduction to Drama in Education

Host Lillian Nave introduces Dr. Louise Heeran Flynn, an assistant professor at Trinity College Dublin.
The discussion focuses on Dr. Flynn’s article regarding the INCLUDE framework and Universal Design for Learning (UDL) 3.0.
Dr. Flynn explains how drama can be used as a methodology to make curricula more accessible across all disciplines.

The Power of Language and Storytelling

Dr. Flynn shares personal anecdotes about the importance of language as a tool for communication and empathy.
She describes how her father used oral storytelling and improvisation to bring inanimate objects to life.
Her experiences volunteering with adult literacy and dyslexia workshops highlighted the barriers students face when they cannot access the “code” of formal language.

Breaking the Educational Code

Dr. Flynn defines “breaking the code” as using drama to ameliorate linguistic discontinuity for students.
She discusses the “hidden curriculum” and how students must often master specific linguistic registers to succeed in school.
Drama is presented as an embodied, multimodal pedagogy that uses physical movement, cognition, and emotion to represent learning.

Practical UDL and Drama Strategies

The conversation explores using drama techniques like freeze frames and thought tracking to connect prior knowledge to new concepts.
Dr. Flynn demonstrates how these methods apply not only to humanities but also to STEM subjects like science and math.
Examples include using “action clips” to predict experimental outcomes or “hot seating” where teachers play a role like Marie Curie or an atom.

Navigating Academic Language Barriers

Dr. Flynn addresses how the formal language of schooling acts as a gatekeeper for many diverse learners globally.
The “Mantle of the Expert” technique is introduced, allowing students to take on professional roles to solve authentic, community-based problems.
This approach fosters purposeful communication by requiring students to use language within meaningful, real-world contexts rather than in isolation.

Implementation Advice for Educators

Dr. Flynn encourages teachers to view drama as a teaching methodology rather than a performance requirement (“drama with a small d”).
She recommends starting small with a “plus one” approach and using the INCLUDE mnemonic for planning context, outcomes, UDL guidelines, drama strategies, and enactment.
Forum theater is suggested as a powerful tool where students create scenarios related to their curriculum and classmates intervene to test different solutions.

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

UDL, Drama education, Inclusion, Learning, Language, Pedagogy, Curriculum, Engagement, Literacy, Communication, Empathy, Collaboration, Creativity, Assessment, Empowerment

SPEAKERS

Lillian Nave, Louise Heeran Flynn

Lillian Nave 00:00

Welcome to Think UDL, the Universal Design for Learning podcast, where we hear from the people who are designing and implementing strategies with learner variability in mind. I’m your host, Lillian Nave, and I’m interested in not just what you’re teaching, learning, guiding, and facilitating, but how you design and implement it, and why it even matters. Welcome to episode 165 of the Think UDL podcast drama in education with Louise Hieron Flynn. Dr. Louise Heeran Flynn is an assistant professor in teacher education at the School of Education in Trinity College Dublin at the University of Dublin in Ireland. She’s recently published an article in the journal I J U D U D L, which stands for International Journal of Universal Design and Universal Design for Learning, which is a fantastic U D L journal. Please look it up. It’s got some great stuff, even in its infancy. It just started recently, but it’s really got some great issues. And this article that she wrote is called “Breaking the Code Using the Include Framework to Support the Implementation of Universal Design for Learning 3.0 in the Classroom Through the Use of Drama in Education,” and this article delineates some easy to use and very creative ways to use the principles learned in drama education that can be applied to any course, whether in the humanities or arts and sciences or social sciences. In fact, I almost called this episode “Don’t be so dramatic, but then people wouldn’t exactly know what I was talking about, but it’s really fantastic. But it’s about drama education and how we can use some of those techniques in any of our courses. And what I really appreciated in the article, which is linked in the resource section of this episode, is a helpful color-coordinated chart of the UDL guidelines with a co-listed drama and education technique that correlates to each UDL consideration, and then she provides a useful acronym include capital C L U D E, which asks each instructor to consider the where, who, what, why, and how of each learning environment and context, and learning goal to implement these strategies. So, starting with the C in the include, C is for context, which is about the where and the who. L means learning outcomes. U stands for Universal Design for Learning Guidelines. D stands for drama in education, and E is enact or put into action. So it’s a great little mnemonic device, but then also all of these really great ideas about how to include some really fantastic engagement opportunities for your classes. And Louise is also a fabulous storyteller, and truly, it is the stories that carry this conversation. So I know you will enjoy this chat and be able to take away at least one more strategy in your teaching repertoire after hearing what is possible, no matter what your discipline. Thank you so much for listening to the Think UDL podcast, and now I get to welcome Louise Heeran Flynn. Welcome to the podcast. I’m glad to have you.

Louise Heeran Flynn 03:48

Thank you so much, Lillian, for the invite. I’m delighted to be here, and I’m really looking forward to chatting all things universal design for learning and drama with you today.

Lillian Nave 03:58

Oh, I’m so excited because I actually read your article and was so so excited, I apologized. I was like, “Please forgive. I’m forgive me. I’m writing out of the blue. But I loved your article, and I thought we need to talk about this because this is a really great idea, and I think would be something very helpful for others. So before I get into the actual article, I want to ask you my first question, which is, what makes you a different kind of learner?

Louise Heeran Flynn 04:27

Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to hear that you enjoyed the article, and thank you for taking the time to read it and reach out. I think we always love to chat with people who appreciate our work, so thank you. Yeah, well, I suppose to answer that question, Lillian. I am going to say that I grew up in a very rural, small rural West of Ireland village, and I am a first generation college student. So this meant that at the age of 1718, I had to move from this tiny little village to the big smoke of Dublin. Nave you know what I usually. Networks of support behind me. So, from that perspective, I’m really very aware of differences in learners’ experiences of education and also access to knowledge, most particularly the hidden curriculum and how, as educators, sometimes we may expect students to implicitly know that which we don’t explicitly teach, and as well as that, I was very lucky to grow up in a house that championed not just a love of language, but I-I almost think unusually the power of language and an awareness of the power of language. And my grandmother lived with us, and it was very lucky that she did. But Lillian, she always used to say, “As long as you’ve a tongue in your head, Louise. She just left that sentence trailing into the air, and I remember for years thinking, “I have no idea what she means by that. Until eventually, I came to understand that she was talking about the power of language, and she really saw language as a tool-a tool to help us to figure things out, to resolve issues, to show empathy. So, for me, then over the years, I remember thinking if I had some difficult situation. So, for example, dating myself before sat naves arrived. I remember if I had to plan a trip around Ireland and I wasn’t really sure where I was driving, I just was reassured to know that thinking of my grandmother’s words, as long as you were tongue in your head, I knew I could just pull the car over, chat with somebody, communicate with them, and find out where I had to go. So, from a really early age, language therefore was this type of reassuring bam for me, and then on top of that, my father is a really talented, creative carpenter, and every night when I was a child, he told me bedtime stories, but not from printed books, orally, wow, stories up, and basically, I was allowed to pick a particular object, and then there and then on the spot, he would make up and improvise these these stories. And I honestly, Lillian, I remember trying to think of the most difficult object I could for Dad, and I remember thinking, “This is it. The post stamp, tiny, tiny. This is going to be so difficult. But then he brought the stamp to life, and he told me one of the most fascinating stories. He allowed the postage stamp to speak, and it spoke about all the different countries that this postage stamp had traveled through before it reached Ireland, and this was all from a man who hadn’t traveled farther than London. So I was really lucky to have that experience from Dad. And to be honest, I think, unbeknownst to both myself and Dad at the time, he was actually using a form of drama in education that we just didn’t know at the time. And my mother also loves books and always bought me books rather than toys as a child. So really, as an only child from the rural west of Ireland, I traveled far and wide, and language then for me was this wonderful place of comfort and solace. But again, coming back to your question, it wasn’t until I started volunteering, Lillian, when I was in first year in university, I started volunteering in an adult literacy organization and within a dyslexia workshop, and that was the first time I was confronted by the reality that not not everybody viewed language in the same way as me, and everybody had the same experiences of using language as I had, and I deliberately used the verb confronted the former English teacher in me, but it really was quite a shock for me. And I remember it wasn’t just that it was just such a difficult thing to deal with. It was almost as if it was an uncrackable code that they were trying to break through, and I really also saw the damage it did their self esteem and their self confidence, and I remember thinking, “Gosh, what must it have been like every day, day in day out, have to go to school to to deal with this? And it was really during that time that I started then to connect those volunteering experiences to Dad and my own childhood experiences, and I came to recognize that there are different ways to communicate, and they’re equally valid. So just like my father with his beautiful oral stories and the wooden gifts that he still continues to make for me, I’m thinking, you know, that that there are different ways to communicate, and they’re all valid, you know. So it was really at that very early stage that I started to do what Dad was doing. I didn’t know what I was doing, to be honest, with the adult literacy and the the dyslexia workshops and the volunteering work. So I remember thinking, look, I will use what Dad used, and literally. In the adult literacy classes, we moved away from the textbook, and we role played relevant workplace scenarios. And in the dyslexia workshop, we brought scenes to life from artworks, from poems, from novels, from history. So I think I was confronted with the realization early in life that made me not just a different learner, but I think that I viewed learning differently from an early age. Lillian,

Lillian Nave 10:28

wow, what a beautiful answer to this question! And I see so much care in your family, and and and how much you loved and learned. So you learn so much through that language. It was a way to translate love, like that care. What an amazing amount of work too to think about a creative story about the postage stamp, and you saw that love that and experienced that love. And what a great thing in your college years, your university years, to see, okay, not everybody is going to, you know, experience the same way. Like they’ll find that that love and care and and communication, but it might be maybe through craft or it might be through you know sport, right? We played together, you know, or something like that,

Louise Heeran Flynn 11:22

exactly. So very much about language and connection, you know, on that that important role. Definitely, I was very lucky, very lucky, and it’s it’s been really wonderful to reflect back also how all the different jigsaw pieces inform the work that we’re doing now.

Lillian Nave 11:38

Yeah. Oh my goodness. What what a beautiful way to start this conversation, and and I kind of see where your heart, like where you’re coming from in this, is is wanting to have that such a special experience, and wanting to have such a positive right learning experience for your learners that everybody deserves to have a really good experience. That learning should be fun and beautiful, and you know, help you grow and a positive thing. So,

Louise Heeran Flynn 12:08

and yeah, respectful as well. That you know, respectful of you and who you are and the way you want to communicate as well. I think

Lillian Nave 12:15

yes, absolutely. It also made me think. This is a very short aside, but I told stories about Ned the Adventurer, who is a character I just made up because to my youngest son, who would want these stories, and it was sort of like the American character Indiana Jones. But he was, and I’m an art historian, and so he would I would tell about different artworks or different places, and and Ned was the name because we moved into a house, and the previous owner that wasn’t just previous, but maybe two or three people previous, we still got his mail. So somebody named Ned Richards, and and so there would be a a mail, a piece of mail. It still comes 22 years later. There’s a Ned Richards, and so I made up this character, and so we would have these Ned adventures. And I must say, I was so tired. And I have-he was my youngest. I had two others, and sometimes the the stories were very short. They were, but but it’s something that he’s now 20 years old. He’s a chemical engineer studying in in Raleigh, and he still remembers Ned. Those those Ned, what? That’s not a great adventurous name, but Ned was the name.

Louise Heeran Flynn 13:28

That’s amazingly, and I think, I think that’s. I’m sure the stories were wonderful and clearly mustard. But again, it’s that moment, those moments of connection as well as learning, isn’t it? You know, yeah, that’s it always, and and that respect, you know, for that person in that moment in time as well. So that’s I’m delighted to hear about Ned, and that’s exactly. I mean, that that’s why I again would say that so much of what we’re all doing is a form of drama, a form of drama in education. So we shouldn’t be scared of using it or embracing it because we’re probably doing it in some shape or form already.

Lillian Nave 14:04

Right, right, exactly. Okay, so so we will have a link to the article so people can can read more about it. But I wanted to ask you a couple things that you can kind of take us through. And the first is in your article, you use this metaphor, cracking the code, is what you say, to describe how drama helps students access the curriculum, and use use a little acronym D capital D little I big E. How do you use drama in education, and how do you see it helping learners to unlock that content that might otherwise remain inaccessible.

Louise Heeran Flynn 14:45

Yeah, Lillian, thank you. Well, I would say aha. This question brings me right back to my PhD, which I called “breaking the code, and which also featured the quote from my grandmother. And in that previous question, I touched on this uncrackable code that I thought I could see the students in the adult literacy groups and the the dyslexia workshops struggling with. So I think you can see a running theme there, Lillian, and that really is that potentially inaccessibility of the curriculum. So in the case of my PhD, Lillian, it specifically explores drama and education, but how it could be used to potentially ameliorate the linguistic discontinuity that can exist for some students, and can be used to, as I would say, level the playing pitch by improving access to the curriculum, and again, you know, as I said, we touched on that to a certain extent in the previous question. So it’s really great to have a little chance to look a bit closer at it now. And to do that, Lillian, you might permit me to talk to you for a moment about the light bulb moment for my PhD, because I think it helps explain and answer this question. So, as I mentioned from a young age, I was aware of this power of language. So, when I went to university, I originally studied English as my undergraduate. So, I became really interested in language and power from a literary sense. Again, the fact that in some scenes in Shakespeare you’d be completely forgiven for thinking that there weren’t any women present on stage at all because they never spoke, or the fact that in medieval England if a prisoner could read a psalm from the Bible in Latin, they could save themselves from being hanged. So, uh huh, I have so again really interested from that perspective. But I moved because of my experiences with my groups in the dyslexia workshop at Adult Literacy. I moved on to the teacher ed program. It was during that time that then that shift, the interest in language remained there, language and power. But it shifted then to language and power in the classroom, and while the student couldn’t access the language of education and of school aid, and that wonderment stayed with me when I moved into my career as a teacher and as a principal. But it was always, and during that period when I was doing my teacher education program, I was really lucky to come upon Professor Carmelo Sullivan in Trinity College in Dublin, who had an expertise in drama in education, and this was the first time I had ever heard of using drama as a teaching methodology. So not studying drama, but using it as a teaching methodology. So really, the connections were kind of starting at that point, and and as a teacher and principal, I taught for many years in very different types of secondary schools or high schools. I think you would call them Lillian, yes. And again, very different in terms of the socio economic context and the students’ experiences of language. So my light bulb moment came, and bear with me as I try and paint this picture. Cognizant, we are we are on a podcast, but in Ireland, at the end of high school, we have state exams or terminal exams, and as part of that, our students take modern languages, and they have to complete an oral examination in that particular language. So, in this particular case, and on this particular day, I had the oral exams occurring upstairs, and again, the students went in one by one upstairs, and they would come down the stairs, and there would be again one of their fellow colleagues at the bottom waiting to go up next. And on this particular occasion, now bearing in mind, neither student could see me. So one particular student came out of his oral examination clearly delighted with himself. Lillian, so ecstatic, he ran down the stairs, and again to his friend that was up next, and there was a lot of fist bumping and shoulder bumping, the works delighted with himself, and he said to his friend, “I aced it, man. And then, when he spotted me, he literally straightened his whole body up, Lillian, his entire body, and slowly and calmly said to me, “I did really well, Miss. Ah, and I remember thinking. that was it. That actually was the moment for me. Both exchanges entirely appropriate, entirely appropriate. But that student was able to understand the context and shift his language to suit to suit the context of speaking within the school scenario, and he shifted his register and tone, but then I start to think, what would happen if the student couldn’t do that as readily as that student? So we also know from the research, Lillian, that a student’s level of success, or otherwise in the education system, is largely dependent upon their ability to tap into the formal. Linguistic code of instruction and operation in our schools, but what if, as I said, what if that student can’t access the code? If I think of that student at best, they could be interpreted as bold or rude, but if we extrapolate that further, it actually could affect their ability to access the curriculum and all of its affordances. So I really believe that as educators, the teaching, learning, and assessment methods that we use in the classroom are really the tangible means by which we help our students to access the curriculum, or not. So that really led me to think: how can we, as educators, support this? And that’s when I started to look more formally into drama education, and it started. The dots started to join. You know, I started to read one of the greatest names in drama and education, Dorothy Hethcott, and she talks about how the information that’s contained in books is like this unpalatable beef bullion cube. So I just love that because it actually made sense of what I had been seeing through my experiences, and she would say that as educators we have to find ways and means to break that cube down. And she suggested that drama education was one of the ways that we could do this, allowing the student to actually break down the curriculum and make sense of it and access it. So, so again, probably coming back to your question eventually, how does drama do this? So, similar to UDL in drama education, learner variability is its core premise. So, drama is considered to be an embodied practice. So what we mean by that is we use the physical body, its movement and expression. So therefore, students can access learning through the body, the kinesthetic, through the mind, the cognitive, or through the heart, the affective channels. So drama therefore functions as this wonderfully multimodal pedagogy, and it broadens the way that the curriculum can both be. I think this is important. Can both be represented and assessed, and it provides students with alternative ways to participate. On top of all of that, it’s really important to say that drama in education is a really well researched and well recognized pedagogy, and there’s a lot of research behind it, and it shows that drama significantly enhances students’ skills and abilities across a whole range of domains, including critical thinking, inclusion, communication, collaboration, cultural competence, creativity, and in terms of my own PhD, that research was conducted within an all boys inner city school, and again, it was using drama to teach curricular content. But the results of that showed significant improvement. Yes, in terms of the use of the language of schooling, but also engagement with the curricular content and across other areas such as collaboration and building empathy.

Lillian Nave 23:08

Wow, so much you talked about makes me think of all of the the issues that we see now in higher education worldwide because so many more students are coming into higher ed, right? So you’ve mentioned the word the hidden curriculum before, yeah. And so the and what you just described to me was something we’ll call code switching,

Louise Heeran Flynn 23:32

yes, yeah,

Lillian Nave 23:33

right. And so there is once you enter into that university setting, it’s I think really important that we, as the educators, explain what are the ground rules and what will you be assessed on. Right, if if they said I ace that, yeah, or they write you an email that’s like, hey, what’s up? Then then it’s up to us to say, I I understand what you’re saying, but here’s how you’re supposed to write an email to me, or you know, here’s what an academic email looks like, or, or if if you’re like me, of like, hey, what’s up? You could write back. So it depends on what, yeah, what you want to create in that space, and then making that clear to those students, right? But we have to understand what is it. What is it that we want it to be? And it’s it’s been a certain thing. And are we going to say, all right, now you’re going to need to act in this particular way, or this is how you access this area? And then I think we’re also at the same time in academia saying maybe we don’t need it to be as stuffy, you know, in these areas as we have been before, right?

Louise Heeran Flynn 24:41

Absolutely, and that’s what I think, Lee. I think I was really lucky to have the experiences that I did, where I was confronted with that. Because now, in the work that I do at the moment, I’m working with teachers, I’m working with student teachers who may so may not have had those experiences. So, one of my biggest challenges, I find. Is the unlearning piece that just because this all worked, didn’t I? I always say we did pretty well out of it. You know, we are here. We’re at the top of the classroom. You know, with the teachers, we had to think about those and thinking back to our own childhoods of other students and so on. And I think that unlearning piece is one of the biggest challenges that I see within teacher education as well, you know, because exactly for the reasons you’ve mentioned, the classroom now is becoming more diverse. But actually, globally, internationally, we know that the teaching profession is a decidedly homogenous,

Lillian Nave 25:32

yeah,

Louise Heeran Flynn 25:33

you know. So we really have our work to do.

Lillian Nave 25:36

Yes, yeah, so much is is coming into this. So my next question is about how you first got into it. So, first, what first led you to explore this relationship between drama and education, which you’re clearly passionate about, and I’m learning so much already. I love it, and UDL 3.0.

Louise Heeran Flynn 25:57

Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much, Lillian. Well, I think you can tell that my work with drama goes back a long way, even when I didn’t realize. You know, back in childhood, but also inclusion really underpins all of my work in education over the last 26 years. So, really, in terms of UDL within Ireland, we are really lucky to have what’s called the National Forum for the Enhancement of teaching and learning in higher education, and it’s like a one-stop shop for educators in higher ed who are interested in furthering their professional development. So, in more recent years, I took a number of their digital badges in relation to UDL, and honestly, from my first contact with UDL, I remember being really struck by the synergies with drama and education, but honestly, it was when I started to well, two things: when I started to try and implement UDL into my own classrooms, and again within higher ed, and also when I was working on a book with colleagues on UDL, but specifically, we were looking at practical strategies with the classroom. So, for both of those reasons, for my own classroom, for the book, I found the more I reflected on it, I really was turning more and more to drama. So, I became more and more aware that drama really was potentially a very useful way to help with the implementation of UDL in the classroom in a practical way. So it really came from my own classroom and working in that book, and yeah, that was where I realized that I think it’s possible that drama and education could be a really practical way that we can help support UDL in the classroom.

Lillian Nave 27:45

Okay, great. Well, I think that’s where we need to dive into because we’ve been kind of talking around it in the background. So let’s get to some practical ideas. So, and and I thought that your article was really great because first of all, it has a table that we can see exactly how they they relate? So definitely take a look at that, listeners. But I know that a lot of folks will say they understand UDL like conceptually, but I want to know how I can implement it. What’s something I can do to to put this into practice? So how do you see that drama and education helps to bridge that gap between knowing the guidelines and actually using in the classroom, and that’s where we get some practical ideas.

Louise Heeran Flynn 28:27

Thanks, Lillian. Absolutely, we will. We’ll certainly chat some practical examples too. And I suppose you know to get to that, I would say, as a former teacher and principal, I understand that the implementation of even the most beautiful, finest theory is stymied if their implementation isn’t supported within the classroom, and if we can’t utilize it in the classroom. So the work that I do, I position myself where I call it, you know, within translational research, because I think part of my job is taking the theory and the policy and translating that into practice, and I think really that’s what happened when I was starting to use UDL. I remember thinking, I I love what I’m reading. This is really cool. I really like it. But I I kept thinking, okay, but how do I do it? So so I’m that really annoying person in meetings that asks, what will that look like? So that’s where I was. I just wanted to see, and certainly the more I read, there were so many different synergies between UDL and drama. You know, from student agency, relevance, authenticity, play, and so on. It went on and on, but it it became apparent. I think that there were a lot of synergies we could practically use. So let me give you a practical example. If we take, for example, guideline three, building knowledge, but specifically consideration 3.1, connecting prior knowledge to new learning, so we could simply use a freeze frame, where students create a silent freeze frame to create a. Just like posing a film, but we can connect that to prior knowledge by simply using flashback and flash forward to create a context, and that then helps the students to access both the prior knowledge but also prerequisite knowledge. You know, so in a class such as English or history or art, for example, the teacher could explore a certain moment in a narrative or in a piece of art. But equally, and I’m at pains to say this for the STEM teachers out there within a science class, you could use the exact same techniques. I would argue to explore stages in a process, or in a cycle, or in an experiment, and again, I will say throughout my career, I’ve used drama with teachers of all different subjects and so on. But we can also snowball. What I say, snowball the techniques too. So I like to add challenge. So, for example, going back to that freeze frame, we could explore that more by simply interrogating the scene and the proxemics. So we might say, “Oh gosh, how close is that character or character or objects together? You know, how near are they to each other? How far are they away? And that also becomes very useful in the sciences and so on. On top of that, you can add further challenge by, say, by using thought tracking, and thought tracking literally asks what might each character, or object, or stage of the experiment be thinking. You know, and I’m thinking back to my dad making the postage stamp talk. So you’re literally making the character or an inanimate object talk, and on top of that, I can further snowball to using an action clip. So, if I say in class action, then the students bring that scene to life to see what happens next. But on top of that, with okay, we are absolutely snowballing. We have freeze frame, we have thought tracking, we have action clip, but equally we’re using different considerations within UDL as well. So we’re also working on cultivating multiple ways of knowing and making meaning, and also fostering collaboration and collective learning. That’s just a very simple example, Lillian. I hope that makes sense.

Lillian Nave 32:20

It does. It does. So I want to ask you a question because I wonder if something I did in college is kind of what this is. Because I’m not familiar with all of those all of those terms, so I’m trying to work them out. Like a freeze frame would be you take maybe a scene from a piece of literature or maybe an experiment, and and you have several students act that out, and and or like stay where they would be if we were to take a film or a photograph of what was happening. Is that right?

Louise Heeran Flynn 32:51

I literally, sorry, Lillian, this is exactly what happens. I find when I start to speak with educators about drama education, most often they have already done something or use something, perhaps with a different terminology or not under that terminology. So it’s just more evidence. Don’t be afraid. You know you’re probably doing it, and it’s it’s it’s manageable.

Lillian Nave 33:10

Yes. Okay. So this was art history, and honestly, I think it was pretty much freeze frame is what we were doing, which was a lot of my sophomore second year in college, and a bunch of us friends took art history one and one, which was a very big thing at our college, right? And so, in order, and we had six quizzes. You had to memorize, you know, hundreds of artworks, and you had to know them by the title, artist, period, date, and it was a lot. So you had to study over and over for these quizzes, and we were told you should make flashcards. And I’m a terrible drawer, and I would barely be able to do that. And this is, you know, back in the early ’90s. So there was no internet. There was no Anki, you know, making your own flashcards. You know, there was no click on your phone and see this, you know, Google an image. No, no, no, we couldn’t do any of that. You could buy a very old black and white flip, you know, pictures, but they weren’t even they weren’t flashcards. Like you could see some of them. Anyway, we ended up acting out artworks, and that’s how we did our that’s how we did our studying was kind of taking part of what I remember specifically. There’s a sculpture, ancient sculpture called Laokawan and his sons, and it’s a very muscular father who is rescuing his sons or trying to from snakes who are enveloping and and crowding around these two young boys and Leican and he’s in a very contorted position and his face is very deeply creviced and contorted and I still remember. You know, trying to make that you know crazy position, and now I really you know I can’t forget that artwork because I was a freeze frame, I guess.

Louise Heeran Flynn 35:10

And absolutely, and I’m also thinking, Lillian, that absolutely it was. You can still remember how you felt trying to get into that position. So it was that embodied learning, the multimodal learning, but absolutely that that use of freeze frame, and also what we would use a lot in art is 3d living pictures, where exactly you might start with that living with the freeze frame, and then you bring it to life, and so on. So it’s for me, it’s different ways in, and with UDL, it’s about for me hanging the UDL considerations on a particularly useful dramatic education strategy, but like anything with teaching, you want to make sure it suits your context and purpose, and that that seems a perfect choice. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it’s wonderful to hear.

Lillian Nave 35:57

And it also makes me think. You know, you mentioned your STEM colleagues, right? So I get this a lot as a UDL, as a humanities person. Like, yeah, but how would that work in a in a STEM class? But I’m wondering if you have examples or ideas. I wonder about one of the things you said was was thinking about like saying action and like what would happen next. That could be something to think about, maybe a hypothesis about how a reaction and a chemistry lab might work. As am I on the right track?

Louise Heeran Flynn 36:28

Absolutely, Lillian. And again, you know, from my perspective, just to state that with the group that I teach, I have student teachers in all different subjects. So they are English, they’re modern languages, they are humanities, but absolutely science, maths, the works. So it’s really important that the examples I’m giving are useful right across the board. But you’re quite right. So I think absolutely I hear that all the time. Also that concern. Gosh, I’m sure I can’t use that in STEM. But absolutely. So for me, again, even the proxemics in terms of distance and and again, I’ve seen that been used in chemistry classes to explore organic chemistry and reactions and so on, and that being used in terms of space and the distance and how close objects are from each other. But certainly, exactly that action clip can be used for the next stage in the experiment, the next stage in the photosynthesis cycle. I mean, again, what I’ve done with students with the freeze frame is, if you’re taking the photosynthesis cycle or respiration, that literally you could do a freeze frame for each stage, you know. But it is like any good teaching; it’s about layering and and challenging and supporting students further. So, if you’re starting with that, that you then start to interrogate it, you know, and then build then with the thought tracking by saying, “Gosh, I wonder what those characters are thinking then in that freeze frame. So, moving, but again, I think that’s the beauty of drama that you are able to so sensitively within the moment, you can differentiate, you can scaffold, and again, it’s very much you become that facilitator of “Gosh, I wonder. There’s a lot of chin scratching. Yes, you know, but I think that that’s really important to build the strategies. And there’s a beautiful opportunity, I think, within drama to to do that and differentiate so sensitively in a responsive manner with the work that you’re doing.

Lillian Nave 38:25

Yeah. Oh my! You have made me think about all different kinds of contexts, which is so exciting and so creative, and also a little bit off the wall. Like it made me think about okay. Well, how could that work in maths, right? Or as we say in the U.S. math without the S, but and but like it makes me think of your original story, the postage stamp, like bringing an inanimate object to life. Perhaps in a calculus or statistics class, it could be like, what do you think the N value is thinking right now? Like, there’s no way this is going to come out like

Louise Heeran Flynn 39:03

absolutely, but also Lillian. I’m thinking, you know, of the hot air balloon game. You know, and I’ve seen that used in maths and science, where all of these. And again, as I say, that that’s I am a humanities person, so I’m really trying to get to get my scientific knowledge across. But again, that’s been used hot air balloon game mean that you’ve all of these objects, your atoms, and so on, etc. within the balloon, but the air, the hot air balloon is losing pressure and it’s dropping. So basically, you’re going to have to get rid of some of the items, the inanimate objects on that balloon. So again, your students have to defend why they, as the atom or the nucleus, whatever it is, should not be thrown overboard? You know, it’s really interesting way of doing it. I’ve also seen with business and so on hot seating. You know, where again you can interview the inanimate object or a character, but in business, when the students were you know learning about money. In cash and versus ATM machines, where they literally interviewed an ATM machine. You know, so the the teacher enroll was the ATM, and the students were asking different questions and so on. And equally the same with cash. So it is. I think I’m always at pains to say it’s very much about your specific context and remembering everything you know about education. You know it has to be purposeful, and you still it wants it will still be intentional learning. They will learn about the curriculum, but just in a different way. You’re just moving them away from the textbook. You’re still going to get there. You know it’s it’s. I remember someone saying that drama education is it’s like a train, but it’s not about the destination. It’s about stopping at really interesting destinations along the way, you know. So it’s it’s it very much like that, and and to go with it because sometimes something wonderful that that learning moment, this teaching moment that you didn’t think would happen happens, you know. And I would certainly say that my most powerful teaching experiences to this day in 26 years would absolutely be those when I was using drama in education.

Lillian Nave 41:07

I absolutely believe it. This is so exciting. Okay, I I’ve got a lot of things. Well, but I’m going to ask my next question, and we’ll see if I can bring that in there. But we’ve actually kind of talked about this this language of schooling, and you describe the drama in education as this language-rich pedagogy, and it helps students to navigate that language of schooling, that code, the hidden curriculum. And so, how does drama in education support students whose the linguistic background or linguistic experiences are very different from the academic language expectations. So, how are you able to kind of level the pitch, as you call it? We would say level the playing field, but I like yours better.

Louise Heeran Flynn 41:52

Again, I I deliberate, but I say pitch or field, and and so on. I got it. We got it. We’re translating. Exactly. Exactly. No, I think great question, Lillian. And I remember so often when I started to explain my work on the language of schooling, so many people assumed that I was working with students who used language and English as a second language as an m2. That was all assumed. So I specifically remember a teacher asking me, “But you’re, how would a student who speaks English the same language as the teacher not be able to understand the teacher who’s speaking English? And again, therein lies the problem. So it’s it’s for this reason that language can present as a barrier hidden in plain sight. You know, on the surface, it really may seem that the student can speak the language of schooling, but they may have very different language experiences, which can affect how they interact with that curriculum. So, in many respects, I think that the language of schooling can act as this unspoken gatekeeper within that hidden curriculum that we touched on, and I really think of myself as the first generation college student. And we know, we know from the literature and all of the research that the variety of language expected in school differs considerably from the interactional language that students draw on for social purposes, and I’m thinking again of that student. You know,

Lillian Nave 43:26

that’s what I thought of.

Louise Heeran Flynn 43:27

Exactly, and the context of school requires that students use their language in a very different way. And so, for the majority of students, absolutely starting school means confronting new way new ways of using the language. Some students’ language experiences enable them to readily respond to the school’s expectations. And again, we saw how that student was quickly able to switch code and so on, and changed how he spoke to me versus how he spoke with his friend. But many students lack that experience, and that experience can make it really difficult for some students to demonstrate their learning. So we can have this mismatch in terms of the language that can occur for these students when they’re in the education system, leading to a type of discontinuity. And on top of all of that, to make matters worse, we know from the research that often the language of these students is often judged negatively, and sometimes their cognitive abilities are also misjudged on the basis of the language variety, and that can lead to all sorts of feelings of inadequacy and failure to achieve their potential. But it can also lead to feelings of marginality amongst them, their families, and their communities, if they don’t feel that the education system is reflecting them, again, I’m thinking, I keep thinking back to that student, you know, who who had that very successful switching. But on top of that, I always think that every subject has its own unique language and its own unique genre and. Vocabulary, and I think of my cricket-loving graphic designer husband, who I hear talking about CMYK colors, vector images, LBWs, and Jaffus, and I still, after all these years, have no idea what he’s talking about. But in the same way, you know, our subjects within our schools and higher ed-they use language in a different way. So, if we think of the conditional clauses in math, if X is greater than Y, then, or the terminology used in the science classes, so that’s the problem. And I really did want to take a moment, I suppose, to put it in plain sight, I suppose, Lillian, and to explain it before we look at what we can do with drama. So, in drama specifically, we create a context where language and learning are co-constructed. Okay, so let me give you a really practical example of a technique that’s called mantle of the expert, which simply means placing your learners, whatever age, and I have used drama and education with learners from the age of four to in their 90s. So you place them into the role of experts, and the real beauty of the mantle is that you can allow your students to work on an authentic, a relevant, a local issue that matters to them and their communities, and also to the learning. So you may look at a local environmental issue, an employment issue, housing, health, education. The learning is, as we said, is intentional and it’s curricular. But rather than learning about the curricular material, they’re they’re moving away from the textbook to learn through drama, and specifically, then in relation to language, language is developed by placing the students in a meaningful context in which they must use language to fulfill the role or the task. So, students use language purposefully to ask questions, to clarify information, explain problems, give advice, etc. But again, coming back to what we touched on earlier, the teacher can also really sensitively scaffold participation by giving key vocabulary or useful phrases, and also within role as teacher, we can add in complications and create responsive opportunities to add further challenge to students and extend and adapt their language. So in that way, language isn’t practiced in isolation, but it’s developed through authentic, really purposeful communication, where they also have opportunity to reflect on its use, refine it, and try it again, and that’s the beauty that I’ve heard students say about drama education: that they can, they know they will have another chance at it, another goal, you know, to get it right. And again, we’re very cognizant that it’s not about getting it right either; it’s living in that gray area, so in all subject areas, then drama can afford teachers that ability to bring their curricular learning to life, whilst also supporting academic language development. And I suppose one of the other things I just wanted to say on that, Lillian, is you know quite often we may think that you know language development it’s done done and dusted so early in life. But we do know from the research that language growth is prolonged; it continues long after childhood, into the school age years, into adolescence, and well into adulthood. So it is, you know, a wonderfully language-rich tool for us in the use of drama. I would also say that drama doesn’t just advance the linguistic skills, but it cultivates, and I think this is very much fitting for me in terms of UDL. It cultivates respect across languages and dialects, so we can use what’s called translinguaging drama, where the students are allowed, and again, it’s it’s dreadful to use the verb allowed to use their home languages, their body language, their emotions to build meaning, and that really then affirms that multiple languages and different modes have validity, just like Dad telling me the oral stories rather than from a written book.

Lillian Nave 49:18

Yeah, okay, and that makes me think about all of the languages available too to our students. I think about texting, about emojis, emoticons, right? Being able to tell a story. I I actually just started this past semester using one of the assignments has a small part where one of the questions is using three emojis, you know, describe you know this event or describe your understanding of this thing, and it is validating the a kind of a kind of language, you know, the vernacular really of what

Louise Heeran Flynn 49:55

absolutely

Lillian Nave 49:56

they’re using that a lot more than they’re using the academic language.

Louise Heeran Flynn 54:30

While drama provides opportunities to recognize and express and manage emotions, it also allows them to respond to others and navigate uncertainty. But I think one of the the biggest points I would love to make about this question, Lillian, is the fact that I think in order for any drama learning experience, or I would say any learning experience, to promote risk taking, perspective taking, and emotional engagement. Students must feel safe in that space. They must feel seen. They must feel that they have voice and choice. They must have a sense of belonging. So, when our students feel that they belong, they’re more likely to feel safe, thus providing so many more opportunities for developing their emotional capacity and greater engagement. So, for me, I think belonging is the fulcrum upon which both drama and UDL pivot, and I think that’s one of the central reasons that, for me, drama and UDL are really kindred spirits.

Lillian Nave 56:00

Absolutely, it sounds like we are helping our students to fake it till they make it, or fake it until they become it, and it’s a safe space. We have to make it a safe space for them to kind of put on this academic mantle or put on this kind of scholar hats or robes, yeah, and then see how it feels, and then see how that critical thinking, you know, is used, and then they become much more facile. I think with with how they’re they’re doing it, and then they can like kind of do it as second nature after they’ve played with it for a little bit.

Louise Heeran Flynn 56:35

That I think it’s another reason why I love mantle of the expert because that is literally what you’re putting you’re putting on that cloak, you know, and I see it in in students in the university where I work. That sometimes they make an assumption. I know I did that everybody else, you know, knew everything about the university and and their parents and aunts and uncles and cousins and everyone had gone and they knew what was happening. You know, I know I made that assumption. You know, so it’s really important that we consider all of our learners and their different experiences of learning. I think, and that mantle approach is one way because again, it’s a level, even equal playing pitch. They’re all working on these issues or tasks together.

Lillian Nave 57:15

You know, I think about faculty as a faculty developer. I help a lot of our faculty, and we talk a lot about the imposter syndrome. You come in and you think, “Yeah, I’m not, you know, good enough to be doing this. And I honestly, I don’t think enough about our students coming in that way with that imposter syndrome.

Louise Heeran Flynn 57:36

Yeah, it’s in from my perspective because my student teachers, you know, have to go out in mandatory school placements, and they find it terrifying. And I’ve actually started to say because I just name it now. I think it’s really important to say clearly. Some of them were assuming that lots of the student teachers had so much experience of substitution in schools when they hadn’t. So we now talk about that in class and just name it. So I’m a big believer in bringing the elephant out into the room, yeah, and the skiff

Lillian Nave 58:02

exactly. Okay, so I I think these are a lot of really great ideas, and and you’ve certainly made the connection as to how the drama and education relates to UDL and and what incredible benefits there are. So let’s say somebody’s listening to this, but they feel intimidated by this idea and maybe worry they aren’t creative enough. And so, do you have advice? What small, low-risk first steps somebody could do to begin integrating drama and education into their teaching in whatever field?

Louise Heeran Flynn 58:40

Thanks, and thanks so much for this question because, as you can tell, I I’d love to make this a plea to any educator listening to please try some drama and education and and let’s let’s chat about a few things in relation to that and some practical examples. But I’d also I I would like to start by saying that when I started working with drama and education, I was scared, you know, and that’s okay. And I think as educators, if you are thinking about looking at new inclusive methods, that says a lot of good things about you as an educator. So well done. That’s the the first thing, you know. I think we have to give ourselves credit for that. But also, I consider drama with a small D, not drama with a big D. So you know it’s really important that we remember we are not learning about drama; we are learning through drama. So it’s still going to be you are still going to be the curricular expert, the subject expert. So I think it’s important to free yourself and your students from this pressure. It’s it’s not about it’s not performance. You’re not going to perform. You’re just learning through drama, and also don’t forget that you, as an educator, you know it’s like what I said a moment ago. You know how to teach. You already have that knowledge and skill. When you start to use drama, it will just be another teaching methodology to add to your repertoire, so you won’t. Throw everything else out, so you don’t need to have that that scare there and that fear there that it’s it’s it’s going to change drastically how you how you teach in a bad way. You have all that knowledge that you will still refer to, and in relation to my last point, it is to remember that drama is a teaching methodology, so we don’t need to be drama experts, and it is it is a teaching methodology that can be used across all education sectors, all age groups, and all subjects. And I do include STEM. I include STEM with that absolutely. But to get started, I would suggest, as you mentioned, Lillian, starting small. You know, using I like to refer to the UDL, the plus one approach. You know, so you might think I’m going to do one drama technique in a week or within my unit. You know, I would also say keep it really simple. Think back to me as a 1718, year old working in the dyslexia workshop, volunteering. So really respond to your own specific environment and make the strategy purposeful for what you want it to be. So you’re still the subject expert. I also think it’s really good if you could buddy up with a colleague, a like-minded colleague, because I think you can, you know, again have the chats and exchange of ideas and fears, and maybe even observe each other, but it’s a really useful, I think, way as well. Like any teaching, always remember why you’re using the technique. There’s nothing more that will bring you to failure. I think if you just say, “I’m just going to start some drama, you know, I think it, you know, it’s a hiding to nothing, and that you need, like any teaching, it’s about planning and having a specific purpose for that. Also, your students, you know, it’s important that they know what’s happening. So I would always say that you explain what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. Also, think about your timing. There’s nothing more frustrating for students, and I’ve seen it when drama, when you start drama with them, sometimes they really get into it, and you haven’t planned enough time. And there’s nothing more frustrating than not having enough time to bring it to its fruition. So, like all core teaching, think of that Goldilocks zone. You want to have enough time that they can work on it and explore it and knife and fork it and get the worth from it. But equally, you don’t want it to be really long, and it becomes too boring, and so on. So plan carefully, and you might on that you might find the include framework useful to start with your planning. And again, that is literally just beginning by thinking of your C, the context. So thinking of the exact where you are, but also the who. And I think bearing in mind everything we’ve just been talking about today, Lillian. I think that who really must include the linguistic profile and the language experiences of our students, and we’re thinking there in terms of context for their potential, in terms of opportunities and barriers. So that’s your context, which is your where and your who, then think about your learning outcomes. Like anything, what do you want to work on with your students? So your learning outcomes. Then I would think of my UDL, the U part of it. What do you want to focus on in relation to UDL and why? And then then think about okay, which drama strategy would help me achieve that, so that’s the point. I’d bring in my drama piece of work. I’d bring in my D there, thinking about my drama strategy, and then E just enact and do it. If I was to mention two techniques to start with, one of the simplest I think is hot seating, and we’ve somewhat touched on that already, Lillian, and that is very much. I think it’s a safe space to start because, as a teacher, you can be in role and you can take the role of a particular character, or as we’ve talked about, the postage stamp, the inanimate object. You know, so you can be Marie Curie, or you can be Radon Gas, you can be whatever as teacher. And again, the students ask you questions. Okay, there’s a nice element of, and I don’t like using the word control, but you know what I mean. When you’re starting out, you feel more, I I can control and handle this more. And then equally, what you would do is scaffold that, that ultimately you’re role modeling to the students what you’re doing. But then I would replace myself as teacher by putting students into the roles effectively, I think my all-time favorite would have to be forum theater, and yeah. But again, I think we’ve been doing it. I’m sure that educators listening have been doing this. So, with forum theater, I think one of the greatest ways to increase investment and engagement is allow your students to come up with specific problems or scenarios, obviously related to your curriculum, whatever you’re investigating and working on, but that matter to them and their communities. But it’s it’s related to the work you’re doing in in class within your modules. What I would say also, if you’re starting out, is you would ask your students to. Submit those scenarios to you in advance so that you can review them. You’re not seeing them for the first time in class, and then ultimately, let’s say you’ve got five or six scenarios. You’re into class. It’s on this particular topic. You allow a small number of students to just play out that scenario. Okay, I say play out. You do not need props. You do not need lines, and they’re just going to go, just play out that particular scenario. The rest of the class watches and observes. That happens once, and they just listen, and everyone takes in. Okay, then the scene is replayed at least twice, and on the second occasion, the class can, and again, this is the beauty of again allowing people to participate as they feel comfortable with, the audience, your class members, can say stop at any particular point where they feel that they have they’d like to try it another way. Could we try? Could we try this? How would this work? And they say, I think, could we try again? If that student is comfortable to do that, they can move up and replace the student in question and play it out themselves. But equally, and I’ve seen that done in my classes. Certainly, if a student doesn’t feel comfortable, they’ll just give what they think might work, and then they again they already the students that are there already will play that out. And again, we keep working through the scenarios, trying different ways of handling. I’ve done this again in adult literacy and in adult classes, and with healthcare and hotel administration, so on, dealing with difficult customers.

Lillian Nave 1:06:29

Yeah,

Louise Heeran Flynn 1:06:30

how might we tackle this, or how might we attend? So it’s a really nice way you can absolutely connect it to your curricular work. But I think the key is the students coming up with the problems and scenarios. I should say, you know, you as as tutor, of course, can come up with those problems and scenarios, and that that can be a way to start out. But for me, you can really grease the wheels, as I say, grease the wheels by letting the students come up with the scenarios. You can, of course, have a look at them, be familiar with them, and that really increases their investment. I think so. That for me is one of. I think it’s actually, if I was to to pick, it’s it’s one of my favorites. Absolutely. And the final thing that I would say, and then I will stop talking, Lillian. As you can see, it’s the West of Ireland in me. I say, but I always think it’s it’s in my office at work, Michelangelo. I’m sure you’ve heard this said at the age of 87, and Cora and Paro, I am still learning. So I think we are all still learning, and that is a sign of a really great teacher. And give it a go. You’re already great educators, and you’re thinking of trying something out. So start in a low pressure way. I’m sure in different ways, you’ve been trying something like this, probably with a different name.

Lillian Nave 1:07:43

Yeah, absolutely. I know I’ve talked about before. Like this seems like a lot of improv or improvisation techniques, but you’ve really introduced actually a lot more about kind of the thinking and perspective taking and and things. So yeah, I’m. I think it’s just so so many really interesting ways that we can make that curriculum come alive, but also you know engage our students. That’s what I love about it, and and help them to feel more like the expert. You know, move into that expert role rather than the the novice who doesn’t you know doesn’t know the code. You know, you’re going to help them break the code.

Louise Heeran Flynn 1:08:25

Yeah, absolutely. Again, I couldn’t agree more, Lillian, and thank you so much for the opportunity to chat about this. It’s been it’s been wonderful.

Lillian Nave 1:08:34

Thank you so much for your time and for the the chance to to talk about it. I know it took a little while for us to coordinate our schedules, and I know very busy. And so I’m really, really glad. Thank you so much, Louise.

Louise Heeran Flynn 1:08:47

Thank you, Lillian. Thank you.

Lillian Nave 1:08:51

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Think UDL podcast. New episodes are posted on social media on LinkedIn, Facebook, X, and Blue Sky. You can find transcripts and resources pertaining to each episode on our website think u dl.org. The music in each episode is created by the Oddyssey Quartet. Oddyssey is spelled with two Ds, by the way, comprised of Rex Shepard, David Pate, Bill Folwell, and Jose Cochez. I’m your host, Lillian Nave, and I want to thank Appalachian State University for helping to support this podcast. And if you call it App-a-lay-shun, I’ll throw an apple at you. Thank you for joining. I’m your host, Lillian Nave. Thanks for listening to the Think UDL podcast.