Choose Your Own Biology Assessment with Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje

Welcome to Ep 166: Choose Your Own Biology Assessment with Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje. Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje are both Education Focused Academics in the School of Life and Environmental Sciences at the University of Sydney. Mike teaches in large first-year biology units, with a focus on inclusive, student-centred assessment design. His work explores how structured choice, Universal Design for Learning (UDL), and authentic assessment can enhance student engagement, belonging, and agency at scale. Mike has led the development of innovative approaches such as “Choose Your Own Assessments” and integrates educational technology to support student learning. Osu Lilje coordinates large first-year biology units serving 1,500+ students annually, focusing on AI-enhanced feedback, academic integrity, and equitable learning support. Her work explores how custom-built AI tools and rubric-aligned feedback can support scientific writing development and reduce barriers to help-seeking for international students. Osu co-founded the Science Educators Community of Practice (SECoP) and has led development of the Scientific Writing Assessment bot. She was recently awarded the Senior Fellowship of the Higher Education Academy. In today’s conversation, we discuss how Mike and Osu updated an entry level biology assignment in a large enrollment course to offer students choice and flexibility in topics and delivery. And when they presented this topic at ADCET’s UDL Symposium (which I highly, highly recommend), during the actual session they offered to the group if their work should be presented as a podcast or poster or in some other fashion and then did exactly what the group wanted. It was an excellent way to demonstrate how engaged participants can be when given ownership of a task. You’ll learn quite a few ways to make your assessments better and how to improve group work from this conversation.

Resources

Mike and Osu have provided an amazing resources-filled folder with student examples as well as the rubrics which you can access here: Student Exemplars

If you find any of these helpful, please do reach out to Mike Widjaja via email (michael.widjaja@sydney.edu.au) or LinkedIn @ Michael Widjaja or to Osu Lilje via email (osu.lilje@sydney.edu.au). They, and their students, would love to know if they have reached you and your classrooms around the world.

Summary

Mike and Osu discuss implementing a “choose-your-own” biology assessment in a large first-year pharmacy course at the University of Sydney.

Assessment Design

The Bio 1009: From Molecules to Cells and Organisms course involves approximately 320 students annually. To promote science communication skills, the instructors evolved a traditional poster assignment into a flexible project where groups of up to four students select their own disease topic and delivery format.

Format Options

Podcasts
Posters or pamphlets
Videos or recorded presentations
Storybooks

To maintain academic rigor across diverse formats, Mike and Osu use detailed information sheets, clear rubrics, and provided exemplars. They emphasize transparency with students regarding the developmental nature of these new assessment methods.

Implementation Strategies

Successful scaling for large cohorts requires structured support systems to manage group dynamics and logistical complexity. The teaching team uses weekly lab sessions for six groups of roughly 60 students to monitor progress and provide guidance.

Group Management Tools

Group Charters: Introduced this year to define individual responsibilities and mitigate conflict.
Weekly benchmarks: Dedicated time in lab classes allows groups to collaborate on experiments or data analysis.
Teaching Associate (TA) involvement: A team of four TAs assists in observing group evolution and providing feedback.

Scaling Advice

Start small by offering limited choice (e.g., two formats) rather than full complexity immediately.
Utilize university resources, such as the Department of Teaching and Learning, for workshop support and design guidance.

Outline

Introduction to the Podcast

Lillian Nave introduces the Think UDL podcast and episode 166.
Guests Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje from the University of Sydney discuss inclusive assessment design.
The guests are academics in the School of Life and Environmental Sciences.

Context of the Biology Course

The course, Bio 1009: From Molecules to Cells and Organisms, serves approximately 320 pharmacy students annually.
It is a first-year biology subject running over 13 weeks at the University of Sydney.
Many students are transitioning directly from high school to university level.

Evolution of Choose Your Own Assessment

The assessment began four years ago as a simple choice between a poster or a pamphlet.
Mike Widjaja wanted to integrate science communication skills essential for future pharmacists.
The assignment evolved to allow students to choose their own topics, group members, and delivery formats.
Current options include podcasts, videos, recorded presentations, and even storybooks.

Managing Large Group Work

Groups are capped at approximately four students to ensure everyone is involved in the process.
Weekly lab classes of roughly 60 students provide a structured environment for group interaction.
Teaching teams use lab time to observe group dynamics and offer guidance as needed.
Students use a group charter to clarify individual responsibilities and reduce interpersonal conflict.

Maintaining Rigor through Choice

Detailed rubrics and comprehensive information sheets are used to set clear standards across different formats.
Exemplars are provided so students understand how specific mediums like podcasts meet requirements.
Staff undergo intensive communication and auditing processes to ensure marking consistency across varied submissions.

Impact on Student Engagement

Providing autonomy over topics and presentation styles increases student creativity and ownership.
Students report higher excitement levels when they can connect assignments to personal interests or family experiences.
Collaborative tasks help build social cohesion and professional communication skills among peers.

Advice for Scaling Inclusive Design

Mike Widjaja recommends starting small by offering limited choices before expanding into multiple formats or topics.
Instructors should leverage support from university centers for teaching and learning for resources and workshops.
Implementing structured elements like group charters early on helps mitigate common teamwork issues in large cohorts.

Transcript

46:46

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Biology, Assessment, UDL, Choice, Flexibility, Student engagement, Group work, Science communication, Pharmacy, Rubrics, Feedback, Autonomy, Creativity, STEM, Inclusion

SPEAKERS

Lillian Nave, Michael Widjaja, Osu Lilje

Lillian Nave 00:00

Welcome to Think UDL, the Universal Design for Learning podcast, where we hear from the people who are designing and implementing strategies with learner variability in mind. I’m your host, Lillian Nave, and I’m interested in not just what you’re teaching, learning, guiding, and facilitating, but how you design and implement it, and why it even matters. Welcome to episode 166 of the Think UDL podcast. Choose your own biology assessment with Mike Wijaja and Asu Lillia. Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje are both education-focused academics in the School of Life and Environmental Sciences at the University of Sydney in Sydney, Australia. Mike teaches in large first-year biology units with a focus on inclusive, student-centered assessment design, and his work explores how structured choice, UDL, and authentic assessment can enhance student engagement, belonging, and agency at scale. Mike has led the development of innovative approaches such as choose-your-own-assessments and integrates educational technology to support student learning. Osu Lillian coordinates large first-year biology units serving 1500 students annually, focusing on AI-enhanced feedback, academic integrity, and equitable learning support. Her work explores how custom-built AI tools and rubric-aligned feedback can support scientific writing development and reduce barriers for help-seeking for international students. Osu co-founded the Science Educators Community of Practice and has led development of the Scientific Writing Assessment Bot. she was recently awarded the senior fellowship of the higher education academy, and in today’s conversation, we discuss how Mike and Osu updated an entry-level biology assignment in a large enrollment course to offer students choice and flexibility in topics and delivery, and when they presented this topic at ADCET’s UDL symposium in Hobart, Tasmania, in the summer of 2026, which I highly, highly recommend going to any of ADCET’s UDL symposiums. You can do it online as well. So during their actual session, they offered to the group if their work should be presented as a podcast or a poster or in some other fashion, like they do with this assignment. And then they did exactly what the group of participants wanted. It was an excellent way to demonstrate how engaged participants can be when given ownership of a task, and then I believe the group chose the podcast, and one of the members became the podcast host, and they had it all ready to learn through that medium. So you’ll learn quite a few ways to make your assessments better, to provide choice and flexibility, and you’ll also learn how to improve your group work from this conversation. And if you are interested at all in STEM classes and how this might work for you, this is a great conversation. And as always, thank you for listening to the Think UDL podcast. Well, I’d like to welcome to the podcast two new friends that I made from going to the ADCET conference, the UDL symposium in Tasmania this summer, and they have a really fascinating new choose-your-own-assessment intervention in biology that I was super excited about. So I wanted to welcome Dr. Mike Widjaja and Osu Lilje. Thank you for coming to the podcast. I’m so glad to have you. And let me ask the start with the first question for you, Mike. And that is, what makes you a different kind of learner?

Michael Widjaja 04:15

Thanks, Lillian. Very excited to be here. Yes. So, what makes me a different kind of learner? As a student, I’ve always done well in group settings. So being able to kind of talk to others, just like we’re having this conversation now, it’s really helped me able to grasp either the content or the activity. So I tend to do better in group settings, and I feel this might have implemented and kind of carried through my teaching. Where I want to kind of emphasize that that group work,

Lillian Nave 04:42

excellent. So that is very much the like affective or emotional social. So you were very social learners. Is that what you’re saying?

Michael Widjaja 04:50

Yeah, yeah, I believe so.

Osu Lilje 04:52

I think I’m a social learner too. I think it’s just appreciating the diversity of experiences that people. And luckily, as a teacher, I’m able to use that to develop resources.

Lillian Nave 05:10

Excellent. So, what I wanted to do is talk about your context and what gave you this idea. And Mike, I’m going to start with you asking this question and and say, what was it? What was the the context like? The class, the level, how many students? I know you’re at a pretty big university. In fact, I was overwhelmed by how large Australian universities are. They are ginormous. So yeah, tell me about where you’re working and where this choose your own assessment is happening.

Michael Widjaja 05:48

Yeah, so we are all from the University of Sydney, and within this, we have what we’re teaching into a subject called Bio One Double o9 from Molecules to Cells and Organisms, and within this, we have about 320, roughly, pharmacy students that come in every year. And this particular subject is a first-year biology that runs in the first semester of the first year of their degrees. And here, it runs over 13 weeks. And for many of these students, their first time at university, so they’re coming around from a range of different areas across Sydney and even beyond.

Lillian Nave 06:28

Wow! So this is really some of their first assignments or anything, right? In at the college level,

Osu Lilje 06:35

yeah. the The students do come mainly from high schools. Many of them have had a lot of written assessments and so on, but I think this is a exciting difference. This assessment it gives them much more creativity and opportunity to explore their learning.

Lillian Nave 06:55

Oh, wonderful! So already I’m excited because it’s really hard to think about this, like logistics of how many students you’ve got. You said over around 300 or so, right?

Speaker 1 07:08

Yeah.

Lillian Nave 07:08

Wow. Okay. So why did you decide to do this this intervention for this class, and what did you do?

Michael Widjaja 07:18

So this subject has kind of run for four years now, and it all kind of started with just a simple poster. And so, I’ve always loved science communication. So during my PhD, I was doing a lot of science communication events, and I think it’s just a very key skill for students to have, especially farmers, because that’s a big part of their job. Is they’ll be out there in the pharmacy, in the clinic, talking to the general public about diseases, how drugs work, and all of that. So it’s it’s a very key skill that I wanted to integrate into one of my assessments. And like I was saying, so four years ago, this just started as a simple poster and and a pamphlet, so the students could choose either of those options and pick a particular disease as groups, and kind of just present that information. And I really enjoy that, but I did notice that it was just these two options. So I was kind of just thinking and talking to a bunch of students: is what if we could do more? What if we could do like a presentation instead, or or a video, and that’s kind of where this assessment all started from. Where it’s now kind of evolved from that. So the choose your own assessment, the students now create a science communication piece where they work in groups to design this piece about a particular disease and a associated pharmaceutical product, but I think what I really like and what this has now evolved into is that the students can choose who they work with in the classroom, what disease they want to work on. Maybe it’s something that they’re familiar with or they’ve heard before, or something that they’re just really interested and passionate about. But more importantly, of course, how they present this information. So, the choices that we have, podcasts like we’re doing right now. So it’s extremely relevant. Posters and pamphlets are still there. We have videos. We have recorded presentations. And for the first time this year, I am Paul. What a group actually proposed was a storybook. And I really wish I could share all these exemplars because I think what the students create is just absolutely amazing.

Lillian Nave 09:27

Wow, that’s fantastic! I think we could, if you have examples that students are would allow you to share, we can certainly put some in the resource section of the podcast because this sounds so fun, and I got to you know see a little bit of a glimpse of what you do, so it’s really really cool. So you decided to do it for this class. I know you were kind of getting these students that were early on in their college career, but was there? Do you have a lot of TAs or? Your staff that’s also teaching these. Did you get input from them about this assignment or or what the students were what what they were facing when they had to do this kind of assignment?

Osu Lilje 10:11

Yeah, we had a team of staff members that are really enthusiastic. We’ve had them for a number of years since this unit, this subject started, and each year they give us feedback on how students are performing, and you know there’s an auditing process, but it’s always important to get their perspective of how the assessment’s gone, and also it’s really exciting for them to share their experience with the students, so that it’s it’s sort of anticipation. The students will get excited as well as the staff about the the the process of creating these assessments. Yeah, it’s it’s really good to have their involvement.

Lillian Nave 11:02

Yeah, I have one more follow up too for for Mike. So you were the one that sort of started this and implemented this idea. So what was the assignment beforehand? Was it always multiple choice, or did it start for something and you said, “Ah, I want to change it”

Michael Widjaja 11:20

It initially started as a poster and or a pamphlet, so somewhat similar formats, just slightly different presentations and structure. But that was the the the initial concept, and this I guess kind of extends from just doing science posters at conferences and all of that. So I figured if we could do something similar for the students, yeah, and it just evolved there, and so I’m I’m very happy how far it’s come since since those early days.

Lillian Nave 11:48

That’s fantastic. And Asu, I was going to ask you about the student engagement, and if you could tell us a little bit about what you noticed about student engagement when they were given this structured choice, and how to demonstrate their understanding.

Osu Lilje 12:07

Yeah, I think it’s fairly unusual. You know, students have this expectation of being told exactly what they have to do for an assessment task, and then all of a sudden they had this choice, and I think it it also gave them some autonomy over their learning, which I think you know gave them a little bit of power, you know, in terms of decision making, and that really did influence creativity and and also it’s it’s the whole atmosphere, you know. Leading up to it, there’s opportunities for them to work in groups, and then you know that strengthens the bond, the cohesion within a group. And I think that choice, and also that feedback. You know, they come up with an idea, they say, well, you know, what do you think about this, and they talk to a staff member, and we’d give them encouraging, you know, feedback on how they plan to do things. So I think it, yeah, it really did build the excitement and anticipation of creating something different.

Lillian Nave 13:17

And how big are those those groups? And did you limit like how many could be? I know you said they could choose their own groups. Could people choose to do it by themselves as well?

Osu Lilje 13:28

We sort of capped it at around four students per group. Sometimes there were groups of two, but that was fairly unusual. But yeah, that that group size was really important. We we wanted to make sure that everyone was involved in that process of creating.

Lillian Nave 13:46

And did the students present those on the same day or different times, or did they have a kind of a public showing, or was it handed into the faculty member?

Michael Widjaja 13:59

They handed in online, but yeah, unfortunately, we’ve always floated the idea of quite like a showcase towards the end of semester. But I think not many students take up on that opportunity. Although I think they’re a bit shy to share their work, or I think by the end of semester things get a bit too overloaded. But I think that’s yeah, it it would be nice to kind of show the other groups, you know, what what they’ve made, just how proud I am to kind of show these at presentations and kind of forums like this. I think the students should be as proud to show showcase their work.

Lillian Nave 14:30

Yeah, it makes me think of in the first semester of the first year of for our students in the United States, we have the big holiday as Thanksgiving right in in November, which is near the end of it, and that’s when all of the family members can say, “Well, what did you do in college? Like, what is your what thing did you do? And and I always think about what goes on at that Thanksgiving table. What are they telling you know those other family members about you know. I had the chance to do this podcast. That was so cool. Like we got to talk about this disease, and we got you know. I mean, I never see that, but I always think about that. Like, what are those interesting and inventive things that professors are doing? That that’s the kind of thing that, as as Asu said, they get excited about it. You know, and that’s interesting to tell their family members because it’s not just why I wrote papers and I took tests. You know, they had they did research. They were interested in it. They could choose. You know, which one they could usually it’s something that you know they find that is interesting or might be related to them or their family. Maybe one of their family members that’s having that conversation. And so I just see all of the great choices that you’re allowing for your students, and then they can. It just makes it so much more social. First of all, both of you being social learners and that affective part of the brain, but also you know gives them that real impetus to do well because they’ve they’ve gotten to choose it. And okay, I’ve got one more question too about this: how how it all works. Which is, you said there’s like 300 students or so that take this class. Are they all in a big lecture? Are they in different sections? And so, how could they, out of 300 people, how do they determine which two or three other people they’re going to work with?

Michael Widjaja 16:19

We have lab classes that run every week. Um, in addition to the lectures during the semester, and it’s lab classes of roughly 60 students, and that’s the groups that they form. So we have roughly 15 groups per class of 60, and within this, we have a teaching team of four teaching associates plus also myself, and so we kind of get to really know the students within that class. We also get to see and observe how their group evolves during the semester. So, are there little things that we might need to step in for, or anything that we can guide them into, any resources or anything like that? And that kind of just helps managing that group of of four students through the semester. In case there’s also any issues that that can also tend to pop up.

Lillian Nave 17:10

And how long do they have from when it’s assigned to when they need to hand it in?

Michael Widjaja 17:16

Yes, so they roughly we introduce it in week two, and within that class, we kind of introduce also some group bonding activities. We we tell them about all the different personality types and you know what makes an ideal group member versus you know an ideal lab friend, and so that’s in week two. And we kind of have the due date towards week eight, but we kind of layer this with activities that run during each class, where they have to do something with be something as simple as doing an experiment together or analyzing some results together. It’s it’s still a group based activity, and we also kind of allocate some time towards the end of class, about half an hour or so at the end of each week, for them to work in their groups, if they want to, even though most students do end up leaving early so they can grab some lunch or something. Hopefully, they’re doing that as their group, so they’re still having that that that bonding, that collegiality within the group.

Lillian Nave 18:16

Okay, that is huge. That’s key. No wonder it’s do it’s going so well. You’ve structured the time for the groups to work on it in the lab, and I love that you kind of told them what to look for and how to be a good group member. That’s a big issue because I know when I first started assigning group work, it was okay, have at it. And I didn’t tell them what their roles were. I wasn’t very clear on you know what they were trying to design, and the fact that you give them kind of weekly chances to move forward or benchmarks, and that that time to get to know each other. Okay, that’s I I can see why it’s been it’s been so good, and and the students love it.

Osu Lilje 19:02

Yeah, there’s there’s another element as well, the more formal element of having a group charter, and I think that’s something that Mike introduced, so that the students knew their responsibilities as a group member, and it it just alleviated that issue of oh I didn’t know I had to do that you know why you know why didn’t you do this? It was all written down. Everyone had a a time to digest it and understand their responsibilities, and I think that’s made it so much better, and the group dynamics, the group issues have been reduced as a consequence of that. Michael, do you agree with that?

Michael Widjaja 19:49

Yeah, definitely. Like this, this year was the first year we implemented a group charter. Previously, we didn’t have any charter like that, so that the as as you have with most groupers. There’s always a few groups that unfortunately don’t do as well. There’s there’s some butting heads or there’s problems that arise and issues. So, but thankfully the the team chart has helped quite a bit for this semester to help resolve those issues, like if as they arise. And this all kind of originated from another academic that I met at the UDL symposium last year. So it’s a University of Sydney academic. That’s Jessica Zanagi, I think is how it’s pronounced. But she had a great implementation of novel group ideas and group work, and I was able to reach out to her after that symposium, and she was very lovely and kind enough to kind of help me integrate some of these activities and the group charter for this to help build that group work.

Lillian Nave 20:47

Yeah, that’s a big plug for the UDL symposium. Like I’ve learned so much from the folks I met at this year’s UDL symposium that was in Tasmania, and it’s in different parts of of Australia. But I, but there’s a huge online component, so anybody listening all over the world can participate and can even present. And I know people who get up at two in the morning and present in Australia time, and it’s really amazing. And honestly, one of the best run conferences I’ve ever been to. It’s because it’s fully hybrid. You can be in person, you can be online, and everything is really well designed. So, and look, you you met someone and and was were able to implement that for the next the next time you had your choose your own assessment. Amazing.

Michael Widjaja 21:39

Yeah, and and and like Lucio met you, and we were able to kind of be able kind of talk about this, and yeah, so we’ll just see what happens next year.

Lillian Nave 21:47

Yes, exactly. Like I would love to go back every year. It’s a long way, but it is amazing. I will say, if anybody has the chance, just joining online for the ad set, which is the Australian Disability Clearinghouse on education technology, AdSense UDL symposium-really fantastic, incredible ideas-and it’s all UDL and it’s across everything. So the fact that if you’re like STEM, like this, you’re going to find some great ideas as well. So okay, so I totally took us off topic asking all of those questions, but the group charter is absolutely essential. And I know when I’ve talked to people who have something like that, it’s because things went bad, you know, before they did something like that. Like, and just knowing. So this is when, like, a new teacher, a new faculty member, can look to a mentor, can look to somebody who’s done it. Like you’ve done this for years now, and you know that there’s going to be somebody who doesn’t respond to emails, or there’s going to be a group that doesn’t figure out how they’re going to communicate with each other. Are we going to text each other? Are we on Snapchat or whatever? Are we on WhatsApp? And so figure out what’s your communication. What happens if somebody doesn’t show up, or what happens if somebody doesn’t do their part? What do you? What do you do? Do you immediately go to the professor, or do you like what are the steps? So all of these are really important because as both of you are social learners, you probably were pretty good at this, but not every student is going to be so good. So having this charter and knowing what to do when things go wrong,

Osu Lilje 23:24

yeah,

Lillian Nave 23:24

is so important.

Osu Lilje 23:26

I think it’s just another skill that we need to learn, and it takes time. And we can’t expect everyone to be socially capable of doing things like that,

Lillian Nave 23:37

right? We have to be teaching that too. Like it’s not just that we’re teaching biology, but we’re teaching how are you a good lab partner? How are you if you’re going to be a pharmacist? How are you going to communicate to somebody who looks different, speaks different, is different from you? Who’s a different generation? Who’s you know from a different area? Like these are all so important skills that we don’t always have them written down in the course objectives, but but we know how important they are. We’re putting them in those assessments because we see how it’s needed in this what 21st century job skills. Like communication is key.

Michael Widjaja 24:18

Yeah, definitely, and I think having it in those weekly classes helps quite a bit, in the sense that if maybe they’re not responding online, at least that they can organize a quick chat during the class. So I think that’s helped quite a bit. And if some of these problems still arise, thankfully again we’ve got that teaching team in the class to kind of maybe not really interview, but maybe just check on on the groups like, oh, how’s how’s your how’s your video going, or have you made a storyboard or anything like that? And I think that kind of just helps push the group along, be like, oh, you know, we’re we’re a little bit high, maybe we should meet after this or something, and that’s helped quite a bit. And I think just having that chat, just a simple chat of of. Taking it on a group, I think that’s made quite an impact on on the progress and any problems that might arise from that.

Lillian Nave 25:06

Yeah, we can’t underestimate that. I mean, it’s very hard to ghost your group if you’re sitting in the lab, right? They may have not answered any of the texts, right? But there, yeah, there they are. They do they put their hand up next to their face like I’m not here. No, we see you. Yeah, exactly. It’s really good. Okay. All right. So I have another question. I’ll start. I’ll ask Mike just to start answering this one. And this is a question I get a lot about UDL. And so, how is it that you’re offering multiple means of action and expression, right? You’re, you’re. They could do it in a podcast. They could do it in a pamphlet. They could do it in all these ways. But how is it that you keep the same rigor? Like, what is it? A, you know, how does one podcast equal one storyboard? And yeah, so how do you kind of lay that out and set the standards for the students.

Michael Widjaja 26:03

Yeah, a lot of trial and error. So the the the product that we’ve got now that we release the students, we’ve got a clear rubric, and there’s a lot of detailed information in that information sheet. And I think this kind of helps students. So compared to other assessment information sheets, we might have a lot more, so it might be too much information for the students. But I think that helps them with all their different formats. And additionally, we have exemplars that we provide feedback on that we also release to the students, so they have an idea of this is what a podcast sounds like. This is what the feedback that we get from that compared to a poster. This is all the information that’s required, how that can be presented, and so on. And I think altogether, this kind of helps with having the students set their expectations and set their understanding of what to get from this assessment. But yeah, it’s a lot of trial and errors. So that first iteration that I decided to do these multiple formats was very bare bones. I told the students that I’m implementing this this assessment for the first time, and we’re going to trial it all together. So there will be different versions of rubrics, different versions of information sheets over each week, just to kind of help answer any questions the students might have or any suggestions they might have. So I was just very transparent with them. I mean, I think in that in that first year, I think there was about six different versions of of the rubric and the information sheet, just to make sure that like everyone was covered and everyone was kind of happy with the the things that were outlined and and the criteria and so on.

Lillian Nave 27:44

Yeah, that that’s great feedback. So yeah, if they’re asking these questions, how long is it supposed to be, and you know what what questions are we supposed to answer? Yeah, all of that still has to be in there. Yeah,

Osu Lilje 27:56

yeah, and the marking also to make it as consistent as possible for the different forms of meet of assessment, there was a lot of communication between the markers, and you know, checking as well, auditing to ensure that you know everyone was as consistent and as fair across the board as possible. So, yeah, the experience of the staff was just as valuable.

Lillian Nave 28:24

Yeah, I would imagine with 300 students and several a team of markers that you’re going to have to have a very specific rubric that everybody needs to adhere to.

Osu Lilje 28:37

Yeah, and the transparency is so important. There’s that way we had buy-in from the students as well. You know, they understood this was an assessment that was still going through the developmental process. You know, just getting it nice and you know transparent for everyone. I think that that that helped with the development process. Yeah.

Lillian Nave 29:05

So, what surprised you most? I’ll ask that about how students collaborated when they could choose their groups and their topics and their and their formats. And I’ll ask Asu if you would answer that one first about the surprises, and of course, Mike, if you’ve got more to share, go right ahead.

Osu Lilje 29:25

I think the surprise is that everyone had their skill set that they brought to the group, and you know, that that week too, where you know we were talking about different personalities, different approaches to learning. I think that was really important. That made students aware that they didn’t have to be the outspoken one who you know would lead everyone. Everyone had a role. Someone be a scribe. Someone look at the literature, etc. So I think it was really. Interesting that students got excited about their contribution as an individual to the group, and yeah, the staff during the classes would find this out. You know, what are you going to do? What are you, you know, talking to the group and identifying what each one, each member was going to contribute. Yeah, I think it was also exciting that they would provide their drafts and say, you know, what do you think about our draft? You know, we give them detailed feedback, encouraging feedback, and that spurred them on, wanted them to do better. So yeah, it was like continuous feedback.

Michael Widjaja 30:44

Yeah, I think French one for. I think it’s just seeing their excitement. I think that like these students, they’re actually excited about a a particular assessment, and and they have all these ideas that even though might not come to fruition. Like we we had some groups, sorry, a group in particular that wanted to do a wrap about this disease and fiber cyclical product, and they were planning all the different verses and so on. But unfortunately, I think just due to due to time constraints, they didn’t get to produce that rap. But I think I think it’s just exciting to see that in the class, just how happy they get, how excited they get about an assessment. They, you know, they can’t wait to start getting into it and start planning all these different ideas, which I think is just so nice to see in the classroom.

Lillian Nave 31:28

Yeah, you made me think of a time in my first year seminar class. So I had first year students, and they it was a multidisciplinary course, and there was a day that I used improv, and we kind of had different parts where I broke them up into groups, where they got to choose pretty much the table group they’ve been working in. And I said, okay, we were looking at a chapter that had two very different kind of main players, the real people from history. And I said, why don’t? So I want you to talk about these attributes of these two people in in a song, like kind of make up some lyrics and present it like the Brady Bunch, you know. And I all of them looked at me and said, “What is the Brady Bunch? You know, they had never heard of this, and I was like, you know, here’s the story of a lovely. No, you don’t. No, and that’s when I realized that I was giving them assignment that made no sense to them, and so I so I changed that assignment to a song of any kind, like whatever you want to do, whatever genre you like, whatever kind of tune you want, and you’re really just kind of telling the attributes of two very different people, and so that’s why I thought the Brady Bunch was great because it was, you know, two supposed to be two diametrically opposed kinds of people with the three girls versus the three boys. Well, then those students came up with incredible, so fun songs that included the SpongeBob SquarePants theme because they all knew that one. Yeah, one was Scooby Doo, so it was another cartoon one. They did some like Taylor Swift examples, and then several did a rap, and so and even one had a beatboxer. So one of the team members could could beatbox and do it. So these were very short. It was just within just within one class period. It was sort of very improv. It was not a long drawn out one. But I found out that I was really cramping their creativity when I said use it in this format. Do the Brady Bunch. You know, do it like this, you know, from a back and forth or call and response. And they schooled me, meaning they totally told me how, first of all, how old I was that I that I knew this that they didn’t, but also that I was putting it too much in a box, right, and couldn’t let their creativity flow. So I learned that about making it structured, but not so pigeonholed, you know. So that it has to be this kind of song, or you know, or even this kind of podcast. Right? You could have an interview podcast. You could have a story podcast. There’s like all different, you know, ways that you can do it. So I just I can see how excited. First of all, both of you are about what the students are doing, and every story you’re telling me is about how into this you know project they are. Which I know if you’re doing a whole semester long project, it can be anxiety provoking for students and boring, yeah, and overwhelming, and you’ve taken care of all three of those with this. I think,

Osu Lilje 34:49

yeah, I think one of the things in science is that we want them to become really good science communicators, but how they get there, you know. Nowadays, they’ve got so much out there. There’s so many different forms of media that we really need to allow them to express themselves according to what they’re experiencing in the real in the world. And yes, yeah, by limiting them to what, for example, from my background, it’s all about science. It’s how you presented in a research conference,

Lillian Nave 35:27

etc.

Osu Lilje 35:28

And that’s how I used to limit students. You know, that’s what you need to be. You’re going to be a scientist. This is the way scientists communicate. But that’s no longer the case. I mean, there’s so many different forms, and we need to allow them to express it in those different ways.

Lillian Nave 35:46

I think that is absolutely true because, meaning, I learn a lot more about. Let’s say I’m an art historian, right? So I will. I don’t read art historical papers that much anymore. I’ll tell you that because I’ve moved into faculty development and all those things. But you know where I get a lot of fun art history info is on travel blogs and and TikToks and you know Instagram Reels and stuff. Like there’s bite size information that’s good. I check it too. It’s a completely different medium, and you know what? It’s so much better than than some of the dry reading I had done for what I’m doing now, at least. You know, and we had it back then, and still do because that was what was available. But now there’s so much more, as you said. There’s just so much more available, and that’s how these students, if they’re pharmacists, how are they going to educate the public about a new drug, right? Or about a vaccine, or about you know not combining these two things? That that’s not so good. You know, put it on a reel, find it on social media is going to be a lot more effective than squirreling it away in a you know doctor’s office photocopy PDF,

Osu Lilje 37:04

yeah,

Michael Widjaja 37:05

yeah, and and this kind of leads into another assessment that we kind of just started to to dip into of just having conversations. So it’s kind of like these oral assessments where, yeah, it’s it’s this concept of communication of breaking down some lecture content in into a generalized setting, just to kind of help build that that communication experience and skill with these students.

Lillian Nave 37:29

Oh, I love it! I’ve talked actually with a lot of faculty members this year about conversational quizzes. Is that that’s what we’re calling it, or that that’s what Megan Donnelly, who introduced it to me, has said, and it’s really just students talking to other students about some a topic, the reading, whatever it could be recorded. It doesn’t have to be recorded for a grade or a pass fail, you know. Just that communication is so important. Okay, so the last thing I wanted to ask about is let’s say we’ve got a listener here who is really excited, biology professor, maybe a physics professor, something in STEM, and they’re thinking, “I have hundreds of students in my course. I have TAs, I have staff underneath me, and I would love to do something like this. What advice would you give instructors who want to scale this type of inclusive assessment design in a large cohort, but they feel kind of overwhelmed by the logistics? And I’ll send it your way, Mike.

Michael Widjaja 38:32

Yeah, definitely. It’s it’s it’s a question I get a lot, and I think the idea is just to start small, just so you don’t overwhelm yourself. Yes, the the the workload up front will be quite large, but I think it’s definitely worth it for what not only the students get out of it, but what you and your teaching team get out of it. And the good thing is, once you’ve done that bulk workload at the start, you just build on it every year and just little additions here and there. But the the one advice I guess would be to to start small. So either choosing allowing the students to choose a topic is already quite an impact, right? And that’s in the sense of not a topic from a list of 10 topics, but free reign of what topics they choose. So because the students, by giving them that autonomy, they get excited. You know, they’re like, “Oh, I’ve always heard about how this works, and I really want to investigate that further. I’m glad I’m able to do this in this assessment. So, just little things like that, or maybe if you want to delve into different formats, choose start off with two formats. Like I was saying, I started with the poster and the pamphlet, and just that initial start, I think we’ll get the ball rolling for kind of these design designing these assessments.

Lillian Nave 39:48

That’s great. Yeah, just one step at a time. We’ll do it.

Osu Lilje 39:53

Yeah. Also, the university provided a lot of support as well. There were resources that I think gave us. A lot of confidence to you know explore alternative assessment approaches. So yeah, the Department of Teaching and Learning at the University of Sydney had a number of transition activities that you know we could participate in workshops. I think that sort of opens up our minds as to how to design assessments.

Michael Widjaja 40:26

Shout out to Sarah Humphrey for for kind of helping in paired with us, now kind of help develop develop these activities.

Lillian Nave 40:33

Yes, I second that. A shout out to your university center for teaching and learning, but especially I got to meet Sarah at the AdSet conference, and that is yet another reason to attend a UDL symposium. Is meeting amazing people like Sarah Humphreys. Even if you are online, you get to meet these amazing people who really do help. Like if you are a faculty member listening to this, totally talk to if you have a center for teaching and learning at your university or at your small college. There’s probably one person at least. There might be a team of people, but there’s probably because we do have some small universities in the U.S. Not in Australia. They’re huge. They’re like 40,000. How many students do you have at University of Sydney?

Osu Lilje 41:20

I think it’s 70,000. Oh, 70,000!

Lillian Nave 41:23

Yeah, yeah. I was amazed at how huge this is. So it can be done on a huge scale at a huge university, but wherever the listeners are listening, there’s at least there’s got to be somebody on your campus that’s like, “Oh, I totally want to partner with you. I, I, I, we could think through this, and maybe they’re not a UDL specialist or anything like that, but it’s the kind of thing a center for teaching and learning is so excited. Like that’s why you get up in the morning at the center for teaching learners. Like somebody wants to make their class better, and then you get to do really cool stuff like what the both of you have just done to to make a, I would say an intimidating experience for first year students in a pharmacy program in their first step out of high school and in the college university system, and you’ve made it really just seem doable, right? Like that they can be successful and not just overwhelmed by the first big semester-long assignment, and that’s that’s really amazing. That’s great.

Speaker 2 42:30

Yeah, I think

Michael Widjaja 42:31

it’s it’s always something I always look forward to every every year. This comes around. I’m always excited to see what the students make their creativity. So yeah, it’s just fun all around.

Lillian Nave 42:41

And that that’s great to hear because if you’ve been teaching for a while, to hear that you’re super excited about an assessment, that’s really good news. Usually, that’s like oh. Usually,

Osu Lilje 42:53

when it comes around to the marking, it’s like oh my goodness, but no, oh wow, what’s going to? And we yeah, but you know, if if we came across something that was really exciting, we’d share it with each other, and I think that’s really, yeah, nice to enjoy marking for a change.

Lillian Nave 43:10

Yes, right. You totally changed the oh, the drudgery of I’ve got however many 300 or however 60, you know, that I have to look through, and it’s the same thing or the same kind of thing over and over again. And that, I mean, to me, is a reason to rethink your assessment because it makes life better for the teacher. You know, this whole conversation we’ve been talking about how it’s good for the student. They’re more invested. They’re more excited. They have you’re giving them the tools to be successful. They have this social component, like, and and it seems doable. It’s not overwhelming, like all of that. We’ve been like student centered, but really, what you’re also doing is making life more fun and and more interesting. And yes, like, how cool is that? That you’re like, oh, look at this. They did a podcast on whatever I don’t know botulism topic. Yeah, okay, something like that. Like, can you believe that they did this podcast or there’s this what a cool storyboard like that was a you know something your students brought to you. I’m just amazed that when we kind of offer that control a little bit over to our students, which is really hard when you’re first starting out. I know I didn’t at all, but when you feel a little competent enough to say, “Let’s hand this control over a little bit, then they are oftentimes so surprising and interesting and fun. So I just commend you for for doing this in such a huge biology course and making it so great for the students and and fun for us faculty members too.

Michael Widjaja 44:58

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Lillian Nave 45:00

Yeah, well, thank you so much for talking about this, for being on the Think UDL podcast, and I will-I’ll get you know what you can share for our listeners, and we can put that on the resources section for this podcast. So maybe there’ll be others who are going to say, “Hey, I could do that too in my large university that I didn’t think I could do that in, but maybe I can. So thank you so much, Mike, and also thank you for coming on the Think UDL podcast. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Think UDL podcast. New episodes are posted on social media on LinkedIn, Facebook, X, and Blue Sky. You can find transcripts and resources pertaining to each episode on our website, thinkud.org. The music in each episode is created by the Oddyssey Quartet. Oddyssey is spelled with 2d’s, by the way. Comprised of Rex Shepard, David Pate, Bill Folwell, and Jose Cochez. I’m your host, Lillian Nave, and I want to thank Appalachian State University for helping to support this podcast. And if you call it App-uh-LAY-shun, I’ll throw an apple at you. Thank you for joining. I’m your host, Lillian Nave. Thanks for listening to the Think UDL podcast.