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Transparent Design with Mary-Ann Winkelmes

Welcome to Episode 76 of the Think UDL podcast: Transparent Design with Mary-Ann Winkelmes. Dr. Mary-Ann Winkelmes is the Executive Director at the Center for Teaching and Learning at Brandeis University and the Principal Investigator and Founder of TILT Higher Ed. TILT stands for Transparency in Learning and Teaching. Over the course of decades now, Mary-Ann has shared her model of transparent assignment design all over the world and has collected data about its effectiveness. I have been a big fan of the TILT method for several years and have taught our faculty about it and have another assignment design workshop coming up next month! I am delighted to get to talk with Mary-Ann about the connections that her TILT Higher Ed method has with the Universal Design for Learning principles, and am especially excited to share this with our Think UDL listeners. Thank you for listening to this conversation about an effective, data-driven, and tried and true method for how to make your assignments clearer and more equitable for all of your students!


TILT Higher Ed website

Tools for Gathering Feedback on your Draft Assignments

Tools for Revising/Creating your Own Transparent Assignments


Lillian Nave  00:00

Welcome to think UDL, the Universal Design for Learning podcast where we hear from the people who are designing and implementing strategies with learner variability in mind. I’m your host, Lillian Nave. And I’m interested in not just what you’re teaching, learning, guiding and facilitating, but how you design and implement it and why it even matters. Welcome to Episode 76 of the Think UDL podcast transparent design with Mary-Ann Winklemes. Dr. Mary-Ann Winklemes is the executive director at the Center for Teaching and Learning at Brandeis University, and the principal investigator and founder of TILT higher ed. TILT stands for Transparency in Learning and Teaching. Over the course of decades now, Marianne has shared her model of transparent assignment design all over the world, and has collected data about its effectiveness. I have been a big fan of the TILT method for several years, and have taught our faculty about it and have another assignment design workshop coming up next month. I am delighted to get to talk with Mary-Ann about the connections that her TILT higher ed method has with the Universal Design for Learning principles. And I’m especially excited to share this with our think UDL listeners. Thank you for listening to this conversation about an effective, data driven and tried and true method for how to make your assignments clearer and more equitable for all of your students. Well, I’d like to thank you so much Mary-Ann Winklemes for joining me today on the Think UDL podcast.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  02:02

It is my pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Lillian Nave  02:05

Absolutely, I have followed what you have been doing with Transparency in Learning and Teaching for several years now and been using it in my classes. So I have wanted to have this conversation for quite a while, I’m really glad we’ve had the chance to finally sit down together. But my first question is when I asked all my guests, and that is what makes you a different kind of learner.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  02:29

I really liked that question. And I, I can’t say exactly how different I am. But I can say, you know, the kind of learner that I think I am, and it evolves over time. But one thing that I think is common for me, in all my years of learning is I take a kind of metacognitive approach. So I’m focusing always on how I’m learning as much as I am on what I’m learning, right. So the process of how, in addition to the content, the what. And I feel like this kind of started, when I was a student in a college student, I noticed that I was taking class notes both on the content that I needed to learn. And then also kind of in the margins on the teaching methods or the strategies that the faculty were using, because I you know, when I saw different things, I just thought that was interesting. And now that I’ve had some more experience working in teaching and learning centers for about 20, some years, I talk about this approach as transparency. And it is hard for me now to not look at learning or teaching without cycling through in my head, what’s the purpose? What’s the task? What’s the criteria, and when I’m reading, I’m always looking for the purpose tasking criteria, as well. So at that framework is something that I now use when I’m thinking about learning new content, or learning how I could support other faculty in teaching. It’s that kind of framework of purpose test criteria. That is, maybe that’s what’s different about the way that I learned.

Lillian Nave  04:23

Yeah, well, we get to benefit then if the because of the way your brain works, you have been really dissecting these teaching pedagogies or that transparency for us. And I must say that when I was introduced to it, I thought, this makes the most sense of all the things in the world. This is so true, why? Why didn’t I think about this before? Why didn’t I see it? But I didn’t have that metacognitive lens that you’ve always had. And what I really appreciated about it, is how clearly you’re you’re mapping out these things. It makes it makes so much sense to me. And I can’t believe that I wasn’t thinking about that before for my students, because I think I had made so many assumptions about what my students know that that, in effect, they were supposed to read my mind in many of the assignments I was giving or what I was saying. And you just so clearly mark it out that they don’t have to read my mind, because my students are very different than each other and from me, so there’s no way they really could have. I think

Mary-Ann Winklemes  05:31

that’s one of the things that makes it so easy to adopt, actually, is that just like you do, many faculty have this in their mind. Like, they know the why. And they know the how, and they know the what, and they know what the criteria are. They really know the purpose tasking criteria. But it’s this is more a framework that helps faculty and students communicate about that so that the faculty can present that and offer it and then the students can offer back like, what is their interpretation of the purpose, the task and the criteria before they start doing the work. So it is really intuitive, it does kind of make a lot of sense once you start to use it.

Lillian Nave  06:11

Yeah, and we just have to be clear, we have to be much better practitioners, I think it makes me be a much better practitioner because I am clearer about those things for my students. So I’ve been a big fan of TILT higher ed, and that assignment design for several years. And I think a well designed clear assignment helps both students and me as the instructor. And I’ve seen really great results myself, where assignments that were all over the place turned into really, really good assignments, because I had created a much better designed assignment. So I’m wondering for you, was there a particular catalyst that pushed you to design the TILT method? And why did you create it? Or how did it come into being?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  06:59

So I think when I look back, there are threads of this through my career in teaching and learning. But I would say the catalyst was, I was teaching classes at the night school at Harvard University, the Extension School. And in one of my classes, I began to think about why are students here, these students are not here because they want to become the future art historians of the world. They don’t want to cry, teachers have art history, they don’t plan necessarily to work in a museum. And when I got to know them a little better, I knew that, for example, in one of the classes, there was a plumber, or security guard, a lounge singer, a priest, a banker, a theatre director, and I was thinking about so what’s the value for these different professionals? Why are they here? What can I offer them that is useful to them in their careers in these different, very different kinds of professions? And how can I offer this to them in a way that’s useful to the 20 year olds and the 70 year olds and everybody in between. And I began asking them a lot about the teaching methods I used and how they were working for them, and a lot about how they were learning. And this is around the time I started working at teaching and learning centers also, I, my first teaching and learning center job was at the Harvard box Center for Teaching and Learning. So as I was learning about how the students were learning, the course started to take on a kind of dual focus, in much the same way that I personally had been learning, right, I was looking at the process, what the teachers were doing, and I was focusing on the content. And so this course began to take on that dual focus of process and content. As I focused a lot more on how the students were learning and what the value of this learning would be for them how they would apply it in their lives. At the same time, I was leading a seminar for new or early career faculty in the daytime through the Bach Center for Teaching and Learning. And in that seminar weekend, we began to talk about this phenomenon of communicating with students and learning from students about how they’re learning as a way of adjusting our teaching and improving the student’s learning experience. And we began to talk about a kind of Wizard of Oz pulling back the curtain so that students could peek behind there and see what’s going on in the teachers head and why are they approaching things in a certain way? Just to sort of share the whys of your chosen teaching methods. Yes. And then when I brought the project to the University of Chicago when I started working at their teaching and learning center, that’s where in another faculty seminar, I think we started to use the word transparent when we were talking about that, pulling back the curtain to show the rationale for the teaching methods. And after that, then the question became, we know this works. So how do we help more faculty use it? And the answer to that was, let’s do 12 years of research and data collection to share with faculty, many publications. And you know, faculty then would produce their own publications about how this works in their contexts. But it became really essential to gather data. It wasn’t my intention really to do this kind of national and international research on 10s of 1000s of students. But that’s what it took for us to be sure that we could convince faculty, hey, look, here’s some data that shows this works. Why not? Give it a try?

Lillian Nave  11:05

Yeah. Wow. You know, I must say that I had a similar experience, but it was probably at the other end of the spectrum. We, you were teaching high school at Harvard, and I was teaching night school, really at our community college locally here in Hudson, North Carolina, which is on the mains main highway that goes from Hickory to Boone giving a little bit of, of local geography here, and we call it Harvard on the highway is our local community college. I was I was teaching, they were all older students who, because of the economic turn, that happened in our area, after 2008 or so are actually in the early 2000s, because I was doing this when I was nine months pregnant with my third child, and teaching an abbreviated five week art history course. So I’m an art historian as well. And, and, and I had all of these manufacturer workers. So we have a huge or did have in this area, a huge furniture industry. So we had very talented manufacturing, Lazy Boy Broyhill, Kincaid Bernhardt, those are the big names here. And they were all transitioning into something else. And so they had to take some kind of general education courses. And there I was, to teach these people who were much older than I was, who had many, many more years of experience. And I had that same thought as what is useful about this, you know, what can they take away from this, it did not result in 12 years of of great research, though. But it did make me think about the value of what I’m teaching and to the particular students that I had. And your double focus of both process and content, I think is really helpful for all of us who are teaching to think about not only just the content and as an early professor, when I was just starting out at the State University of New York, in Oneonta, it was all about content, I have this much, you know, all at 15 chapters, I have 15 weeks, we’re doing a chapter a week, you know, we’ve I’ve got to cover all this content. And I look back on that now. And I think that was so much of a waste of time, in not thinking about the process. And it was really easy for students to remember the dates and then forget them two weeks later, and not think about what is the long term value in the long term goal of what the students are getting out of it. And that that is such a helpful, and I think really imperative thing for us to be doing to be thinking about that as we are putting together courses are thinking about even each class, what are we getting out of this class today? What are we getting out of these learning activities? What What are students going to take away from it rather than just I have to cover these five theorists? Or these seven churches or whatever it is?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  14:06

Yeah, I absolutely resonate with that. And I think this dual focus on content and process means that students leave with some knowledge about art and history of art. And they also leave with process wisdom. They leave with additional discipline, you know, in our case, it was art historical skills, what how do art historians think and look at the world and analyze and experience different spaces or visual surroundings. So to me the value of that process piece was that it helped the students be more aware of how they were learning, and then apply those different kinds of learning skills and looking skills and experience skills to they’re very different kinds of professions and vocations. Yeah.

Lillian Nave  15:07

Yeah, it definitely made me reconsider what the point was, um, because I loved our history, I studied in Florence, I fell in love with it, I loved everything about being in Italy, because that was my, the first place I went and then became a Greek art historian mostly. And I love the food, I love the people I love, you know, all of this, and I had so many personal connections that were so important to me. And not everybody is going to experience the material the same way, right that I did. And as much of the excitement that I had, that I was trying to convey to others, that also wasn’t going to be what every student was going to get out of it either. So I think if we change that focus from not always what we get out of it, but what can our students really get out of this? This topic, this learning process, we’re really helping our students in the long run that way. So we’ve we sort of talked about the three parts of what the tilde method is, but could you give us a general overview of TILT and assignment design? Before we go go into the why of each part?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  16:19

Yes. I think what I like best about that transparency framework is that it is an equitable teaching tool. You know, we’ve talked about how it’s simple, it’s intuitive, it’s easy to apply, there are benefits. But for me, I think what excites me the very most is this equity piece, the benefits we were able to demonstrate, starting with the 1996 publication in the AAAs, the Association of American Colleges and Universities, journal peer review, that publication is where we first shared the results that indicated this equity, or the equity benefits, we were able to show that the learning benefits for students who had received the transparent instruction intervention were statistically significant and positive, right. And that the benefits for underserved students weren’t even larger. Wow. And that that was the sort of exciting equity piece. So we could demonstrate that the students who received the intervention who were underserved in some some way so first generation college students first in their family to go to college, or ethnically underrepresented students, or low income students, right, students who often have sort of risk factors that colleges are aware of, and they analyze to sort of identify students who might need additional supports. Yeah, these are the students who’ve benefited more. So the transparent approach benefited all the students we studied some a statistically significant amount, and it benefited underserved students even more. Wow. And to me, this was a way of using a tool that brings all the students to a closer to equal level of readiness, before they start doing a particular assignment, just sort of bring folks to the same starting line of understanding about what’s the background knowledge you need? How do you understand what you’ll be learning? And how you’ll be learning it? And how will you know when you’re learning it? If, if your learning is effective, right, if you are fulfilling the criteria, so you sort of know ahead of time what your grade might be, right? You know, if you’re because often when you’re doing something new for the first time, which is how college students often do things, right, first time they’ve tried a particular assignment. They don’t necessarily know when they’re doing it, if they’re doing it. Well. You don’t find that out until later when they get a grain. So I like to start with the purpose part of this transparent framework, the purpose task criteria, the purpose has these two pieces to it. What knowledge will the student gain? And what skills will the students practice?

Lillian Nave  19:38

Yeah, two different things. Yeah.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  19:41

And how will the knowledge and skills then benefit the student later? How would they apply those maybe in useful contexts in their own? Right the same question that you asked about your students that I asked about my night school students? The purpose I think also helps to move motivate students. So when they know going into the work, what the value of that work is for them, they’re more willing to do it and they’re more excited about doing it, because they will gain something from it. The task then is a simple explanation of what are the steps, what’s the first thing you will do and the next thing you will do, and the next thing after that until the moment when you submit the work. And that task is meant to help students spend 100% of their time doing work that is productive, and that contributes to the value of the assignment. Yeah, this is the task is sometimes an area where we’ll, we’ll hear some faculty pushback about this. Some faculty have pedagogically sound reasons for withholding information about the steps they want the students to follow while they do the work, right? Because the value of the assignment for these faculty and I can think of particular disciplines where this often happens, engineering, and creative arts, okay. And those are contexts in which faculty often want for students to create to be super creative, and come up with their own approach to addressing the problem, or the

Lillian Nave  21:30

question of the assignment. They don’t want it to be overly prescribed.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  21:34

Exactly. They want to allow lots of flexibility, and lots of opportunity for creating. But for for many undergraduate and graduate student assignments, faculty really have a kind of expectation that students will approach something in a particular way, using some of the skills that had been taught to them before in the class, some of the things they might have tried in class, following the patterns of some of the examples that they’ve seen of writing or performing or lab work. I think it’s helpful for students to see the steps written out and to hear the steps described, before they start doing the work. If your goal is for the student to spend all of their time doing productive work, so that the assignment reflects their best effort and their real understanding. The risk comes when you withhold the steps. And then students spend half of their time figuring out how should I do this assignment? You’re asking around and talking to people. And maybe they’ll come to office hours, but maybe they won’t. And maybe I’ll ask somebody who gives them a set of steps that’s different from what the faculty member had in mind. Right. And that means that once they finally get down to doing the work of the assignment, much of the time has been lost. Yeah. So the amount of time they actually can spend on doing the productive work of the assignment is diminished, as is the quality of their work and the benefit of the learning. Yeah. Then the final piece of the framework is where faculty offer criteria, right. And for many faculty, this means a rubric or a checklist of characteristics of what the Finnish word that would describe the finished work, okay. And here is another place where you can inspire students creativity, a lot of times faculty will provide one good example of what it looks like in the real world when work like this is done effectively. Right. But when you offer students one example of a thing that is foreign to them, and unfamiliar and new and scary and risky, they will cling as closely as possible to that example, right? It’s almost like encouraging plagiarism when you offer students a single way or single example of an unfamiliar task and then ask them to do that. So that’s why I like to, to recommend that faculty offer several examples, multiple examples of work, not necessarily past students work, but more real world work in the discipline. So for example, for an engineering professor, this might be bringing in, you know, civil engineering projects, like is there a local bridge construction or repair project in the community, that the students could analyze that, you know, the faculty member could bring in photos of it or designs plans for it? Descriptions of it and then, you know, proposals by the companies that were selected To do the work, they could put these kinds of things in front of the students. And then the students could look at the professor’s checklist of criteria, the characteristics of successful work. And then they would apply those characteristics to the real world work example that the faculty members brought in, and then talk about how successful is this particular construction project in my community at meeting the criteria for my own upcoming work of designing a bridge project, for example, right. Or if it’s a an acting class, a snippet from a theatrical production or a film, if it’s a journalism class, a piece of an article, a paragraph of an article from a local newspaper, or in any kind of discipline, a paragraph of a publication from a journal in that discipline that might have something to do with the lives or the students or the local community? These are the kinds of multiple examples I like to recommend, so that students can look at several examples. And they can think about two things they can think about. Number one, how do the criteria for my own upcoming work apply to this example? Yeah. How does this example illustrate or fit those criteria? And then, which of these examples fits which of these criteria most effectively, and which is fitting these criteria in the least effective way? And what does a mediocre job of meeting the criteria criteria look like? This is this will allow students to understand how they are doing while they are doing it. And it also leads to benefits like, you know, a better understanding of the student’s grade. Yeah. And then spelling out the task leads to fewer questions from students at the last minute about Wait, should I do it this way or that way?

Lillian Nave  27:05

Yeah, it makes our lives easier, I found that it was.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  27:10

And on the till website, there are multiple publications by faculty who described the ways in which this has benefited not just their students learning, but also their teaching experience.

Lillian Nave  27:21

You know, I must say, I have recently been using my TILT assignments, but also incorporating and grading and you’ve talked and talked a lot about grades, and that being able to let students know how they’re doing, right, depending on the grade. And, and I’ve found that through how detailed I am with the task and the criteria, I have really, it’s just a one point rubric of Did you complete the assignment, you know, if you followed all the steps and you you handed in whatever it was, was it the chart, or if often have them draw something or create a cartoon, a cultural cartoon that that examines or gives in, gives an example of the thing we’re looking at that week. So it could be very creative, right? It could be, they don’t have to be artistic, they could just draw stick figures. But because I have so much in the assignment that tells them, you know, what I’m looking for the end point is, they’re very able to tell if they’re successful or not, you know, and then we all put it on the discussion board together. And we’re all we’re all looking at it and we’re learning from each other that way. So that feedback is is part of that learning process. And we have to get that early on. In part of that upgrading process of knowing if students participated and did all of these things, then they know they’re on track for for what they want to earn in the class.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  28:56

And that experience that your students have of knowing how they’re doing while they’re doing, it really generates some other predictors of student success. Like when students understand the purpose, the task and the criteria ahead of time, that generates or supports the sense of belonging that they feel in this course in this discipline. And maybe even in college. It also support and we can see this in some of our research, the transparent approach will help support students confidence. So once they feel like they belong, and they actually know how they’re doing, then they feel more confident about doing it. And that will perhaps lead to greater persistence, which is another predictor of student’s success. You know, according to other researchers like Walton and Cohn in their 2011 and 2021 publications or Hausman, and yay, these researchers point to confidence, a sense of belonging, and metacognitive awareness of the learning as predictors of student success, student success as measured by grades, or as measured by persistence and a discipline re registering for another year of school or re registering in another course in that major in that discipline. Yeah. Yeah. So I see this transparent framework as absolutely supporting faculty satisfaction, and student success and student student confidence. But also I see it as an equitable means to support the persistence and continuation and long term success of students

Lillian Nave  30:56

equitably, yes, you are actually speaking, the UDL guidelines right now, because the first column is about the multiple means of engagement. And part of the UDL guidelines is about recruiting interest, and sustaining effort and persistence. And that’s one of the early connections I made with your work is like this is so powered by Universal Design for Learning. And with being so transparent. You mentioned that there were great games by all students, but even more so by students who were traditionally underserved or underrepresented. And it that says to me, it’s breaking down those barriers that are often found in a hidden curriculum, that some students know what’s going on. Because they have either a different background, they went to a college prep school, rather than a school that didn’t cover some of these things that they, that there are things that are sort of unspoken, and the TILT method makes those unspoken things very much spoken so that everybody has an even playing field on what is expected of them and what to do. So you really actually started on my next question, which is why, why begin with purpose. B, the TILT method is a way to recruit interest, engage students in the work, connect the student to the importance or the salience of the goal of the assignment. Those are exactly Universal Design for Learning principles. So I was wondering if you could share some examples or how you see that that purpose part does connect to that recruiting interest, or helps students understand that the salience of you know why they’re doing what they’re doing?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  32:53

I think part of the reason that I like to use the purpose when I begin, not that every teacher uses the purpose first, often they’ll begin with the criteria or the task. First, it it works either way, like we have, in fact, the research that we did, looked at what are the benefits for students, when faculty use the framework in their own way, at their own discretion, because it’s impossible to ensure that everyone around the world who’s using this is using it the same way, right? What we measured was what happens when people use it in their own way in their own field in their own in a way that’s consistent with their own personality and their own teaching style. But getting back to this question of why purpose, and what do you accomplish with addressing purpose? I agree with you that this is a way to help students feel motivated and connected, that they all have the same basic information starting out, they’ve all got an equal awareness of what the skills are that they will practice, and how they’ll use those skills later in life, and what knowledge is that they will gain and how that knowledge will help them outside of this context, this assignment and later in life. And some students can figure that out on their own. And usually those are the students who have come to college with all the advantages, who have learned how to do this in fancy private high schools, or students who can reach out for a little bit of help from someone in their family who has already been to college, or students who are bold enough and confident and secure enough to recognize that, oh, this assignment written the way it is here isn’t actually very clearly stated. I’m going to ask the professor to clarify to do a better job of explaining right, but that’s not the majority of students. Right? have that capacity to explore and define the purpose. And so I think it’s important to bring the same knowledge and the same understanding about the purpose to all the students, who then can begin with that same understanding at the starting line. So they’ve got an equal opportunity to succeed. And maybe some of them needed it less because they could have figured it out on their own. But the majority of students will need your description and your explanation, they will need to ask you questions about what you say, regarding the knowledge and the skills in order to reach that same starting place of readiness to succeed on the assignment. And the only way you can possibly know that all the students have reached that same point of readiness is for them, to tell you what they see about or what they understand about the knowledge and the skills part of the assignment.

Lillian Nave  36:05

Yeah. And that part about what knowledge you’re going to get from doing this, and what skills is also related to Universal Design for Learning principles. In fact, that separation between knowledge and skills, and being really, really clear on one’s goals is also part of Universal Design for Learning. Because sometimes we inadvertently put a barrier up for our students, when we say, you know, write a 15, page paper, to analyze this thing, whatever it is, and, really, we care about the analysis. But it could have been a podcast, right? Or it could have been a film, it could have been a written paper, but we didn’t exactly explain what we want it to be. Maybe it wasn’t about writing, maybe your class was more about message delivery or something like that. And we might have thrown a barrier to somebody who could express that better in one form over the other. And we weren’t clear in what the goal was. So separating that knowledge and skills goal is something that Universal Design for Learning, as the principles have been emphasizing for over a decade now. To make sure we are really clear on what it is we want students to do. And when I talk with my UDL colleagues all over the world, they’re one of the first question is what is the goal? You know, or it depends on the goal. What do we do about this? Well, what is your goal? And really, we have to be really clear on that. And then we have to explain that to our students, for them to be successful.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  37:41

Lillian, that separation of the knowledge and the skills pieces of the goal is something that I think faculty and students have focused on more during this period of COVID, 19 pandemic. I agree, you’re right, yeah, the stressors that accumulate on both students and faculty here offer us a kind of analogy to intersectional kinds of forces that accumulate to diminish the opportunities and learning experiences of students who are marginalized, marginalized in any way, whether that means abilities and disabilities or skin color, or ethnicity, or gender expression. There’s, there’s so many different kinds of ways that people can be marginalized. And I think we just witnessed or and we’re still witnessing during COVID-19. They insert intersectionality of stressors in a way that hasn’t been quite as visible before, because we haven’t been looking inside of people’s rooms and inside of their houses through zoom before. And we haven’t been talking about the difficulties so explicitly before. And because we do that means that students and faculty alike are thinking a little bit more explicitly about what’s the knowledge and what’s the skill involved in the goal here. That is what has enabled faculty to be more flexible about the kinds of assignments they’re requiring. So just as you were describing a podcast as a way to demonstrate the same analysis skills that could be demonstrated in a 15 page paper. We’ve got faculty who are asking for short presentations, or podcasts or videos or other kinds of interpretations of knowledge or understanding that could serve instead of the traditional paper or presentation, or test,

Lillian Nave  39:53

right. Yeah, and even the idea of what is participation mean? It used to be participation that you raised your Hand and you’ve verbally answered a question. And it means so many different things. Now, I mean, it could mean that you are typing in the comments, you know, during a zoom chat. Or it could also mean that you watch the recording of the zoom and answer, you know, some questions and engage in a dialogue asynchronously. And it’s just very different. And we really have to be very particular about what we want out of that interaction. And we probably weren’t measuring what we thought we were measuring before. You know, it used to be if, if I, when I was a student, and maybe I wasn’t as prepared for class, right, you want to make sure you make the first comment, and then the teacher knows you, you at least read that first paragraph, right. But, but what were we really measuring, but in having, certainly, technology has helped. But this skewing of how we have done things forever, I think has made me much more aware of what I’m asking and what I should be asking, and why am I asking that of my students? And giving them multiple ways to? To give that back to me?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  41:09

Yes. And I also think that students and faculty have become much more aware of different learning strengths, preferences, styles, accommodations, yeah, because it has been necessitated by this pandemic. So as you were pointing out, there are so many faculty that are often surprised at the end of a semester when you know, someone who hasn’t said anything all term turns in outstanding work. Right. Brilliant. Yeah. And those are sometimes the students who are now as you pointed out, typing into the chat, your resume meeting. There are other ways of participating now, and the fact that we are thinking so explicitly and noticing the benefit of offering alternate ways to learn alternate ways to communicate. Yeah, I think, I mean, you can tell me which of the Universal Design for Learning principles that matches up with the best, but are the closest, but I feel like that is in fact, engaging all of us teachers and learners in a process of thinking about other ways to learn.

Lillian Nave  42:28

Yeah, well, and Universal Design for Learning overall, is a lens through which we see the world in that we recognize and not just recognize that there is learner variability. But we see that as a strength, that neuro diversity is a strength, and we can leverage the differences and the diversity of our students, whether that be in how they learn in disabilities, or abilities, in cultural background, or anything, that we leverage that diversity, and that difference to the betterment of everybody’s learning environment that we bring those things in, and we don’t try to marginalize it. Or we don’t try to say, Oh, well, you’re going to have to do things differently because of who you are. But rather, can you show us and demonstrate and bring that in, so we all can learn in how we do these things. That’s what I love about how universal design for learning changes the way I have thought about students trying instead of trying to mold into one form, saying let me see the diversity and difference and the beauty that that brings to our space, our learning environment, etc.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  43:44

And I think this lens of universal design, much like the Quality Matters, rubric or lens for online learning, or the these are ways to view this experience of learning and teaching. And similarly, the TILT framework is a way to view how you would present or offer opportunities for learning is just a it’s it’s a very simple framework that is in agreement with UDL framework or quality measures framework or other knowledge about learning and teaching and additional research is a simple three part frames that you can use to map on to any kind of learning or teaching plan.

Lillian Nave  44:36

Yeah, and clarity, it brings so much clarity and I look at it and I kind of match it up with the various parts of the UDL framework, the engagement part is of purpose maps on to the the first task or sorry, the first part of purpose matches on for me on the engagement part, you know, why are we learning this? And the second part which is about the task Have what is a student supposed to do in this assignment to show or demonstrate that they’ve learned what you want them to learn? That second part is the detailed task portion. So everybody’s caught up, they know what they have to do. And I think that most closely aligns with the UDL principle of providing multiple means of representation. So knowing what they are expected to do, which includes multiple means of displaying information. So if they need to read something, or listen to something, that sort of thing. And it also hits on the idea that is part of multiple means of representation, clarifying things like vocabulary, activating background information, among others. That’s the whole part about where I thought students were had to read my mind. If if I was using a term that I didn’t define, I needed to make sure they knew we were on the same page, right? And so in what ways do you suggest instructors provide steps for the task at hand, that makes things as clear as possible?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  46:10

I think no matter how hard an instructor works at providing a set of steps, how much research they do about learning and teaching, they will never know for sure that those steps are absolutely clear to the students until they engage the students in a conversation and ask the students to sort of explain back to them, what’s your plan? You know, what is? What is your plan? What, how will you begin this work? What’s the first thing you’re going to do? What are going to be some stumbling blocks you might come up against, as you look through these steps, that’s the moment when you know that students are prepared to start this assignment from the same place of readiness to succeed. So certainly, offering some list of tasks is helpful. But to be sure students really understand it in the same way that you think you’re describing it. Yeah, you need to hear it back from them. And you also mentioned sort of clarity about vocabulary. So there may be words, you know, let’s say, one of the steps involves analyzing something. Well, if this is a student who has done analysis in an art history class, that means a certain kind of visual analysis process. Yeah, but if this is a chemistry class, or a music class, the word analyze means something totally different. Yeah. So you can think you are saying to a student exactly what they should do. But because of this difference of what words might mean to us, in a field versus students who are novices in that field, we have to go through a sort of communication, this has to be a two way communication about what the steps are. And then if you’re going to not share the steps, because like the engineering professor or the Performing Arts professor, who we mentioned before, you want for students to imagine and invent creative new steps. Yeah. And you’ve got to tell them that that’s part of the intended process. If you don’t, their their confidence and sense of belonging, those two big important predictors will be compromised. Yeah, because they won’t know that the intended effect is confusion and struggle that then leads to learning later on. Yeah, they might run the risk of thinking, Oh, maybe it’s my fault. Maybe it’s just maybe I’m the only one confused. Maybe I don’t belong in this field. Maybe I don’t belong at this school, right? This kind of snowballing effect of self doubt can be so easily removed. But just by telling students up front, you know, part of the purpose of this assignment is for you to struggle and feel confused. Yeah, right. And clarity comes later, when students know that coming in, and they had that same equal starting line of understanding that the process they are about to embark on will involve confusion, then that confusion will not destroy predictors of student success, like confidence and sense of belonging and awareness of learning.

Lillian Nave  49:34

Yeah. And being very forthright about that process is really important. Because I know I had very much a fear of failure and not wanting to do things incorrectly. And that puts a real damper on trying new things. So if we want our students to try something new that they’d never done before, we really should talk about failure and say that’s a great thing we can learn from it. Here. I want you to document your first try This, and then I want to, you know, once you tell me all about it and why it didn’t work, you know, and that’s, that’s part of the process, you know, you should be really proud of that failure and tell me about it. I want to know. And then you move on to the next pillar

Mary-Ann Winklemes  50:12

for the purpose of learning. Yes, yeah. For students to know that that’s part of the project, I think, is hugely, it takes away risk and fear and doubt, self doubt. I’m thinking back about something you said a moment ago about the multiple means of engagement, as we’re discussing now, how to use the framework. So one way of engaging is for this fact is for the faculty member, the teacher to present information about an assignment, or an activity and exercise a class meeting, using the purpose task criteria framework. That’s only one way of engaging and as we’ve said, The words that you say, are not heard or understood by novice students in your field in the same way. So the another way of engaging is for the students to say back to you what they think this means, or how they will apply these steps when they start doing the assignment. And then the multiple kinds of examples are also ways for students to see this in different in different modes, right to understand this from different perspectives.

Lillian Nave  51:30

Yeah. Yeah. So um, I have found that I really appreciate that purpose task and criteria framework, especially for assessments, right, that that is where I feel like I need to make those connections as clearly as possible. So because I deal with first year students, and they are novices at college, right, they are new to all of this. And that’s where I feel like I have to make it as clear as possible for them to really feel confident enough to tackle what I think can be really overwhelming or strange, different types of assignments that I’m asking them to do. And the more I can explain to them, what it is explained my terms, or show them examples, is going to be better. And one of the things you mentioned was about having students kind of talk back to you about those steps that task. And it made me think of something that I learned from a colleague, Kate denial, who has her students annotate the syllabus, and I think, you know, pulling up a document of what those steps are, and having students say, Well, what does this word mean? You know, what do you mean, analyze here? Or does this mean, I should do this? Or can we, you know, can we do X, Y, or Z when you know, on Step seven, that might be a good way to do it if you’re not in a classroom to have, you know, hands raised but or have an asynchronous way for, for folks to really flesh out? You know what that is? Because we do we want our students to understand what what we want them to do.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  53:07

And I think another piece of the success of the framework is that we have published a student version of the framework, okay, is the outline for how students would ask themselves questions or their faculty, or their their teacher questions about, about the purposes task and criteria of the assignment to get themselves ready to do to succeed on the assignment. And the student framework serves a couple of purposes. First, it is something that faculty themselves can put in front of students at the same time they are introducing an assignment, the students can follow the framework to parse the assignment, and to analyze the assignment and to ask questions about it and clarify it. And that takes the onus off the professor of trying to man, imagine every possible kind of way that a student might think they understand or that you might think you were saying clearly does, it multiplies the opportunities for students to be equally ready to succeed when they are following through the framework. It also strengthens their ability to parse other assignments in other courses. And I remember when I was at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, we gave this framework to entering first year students, and a lot of professors of first year, introductory level classes were already using the framework. But students then were able to ask the purpose test criteria questions, even in classes, where their framework wasn’t yet being used. And that gives students then a tool to succeed in other classes where they can cause transparency when it’s not yet there.

Lillian Nave  54:59

Yes. Well, you bring up something that Universal Design for Learning is designed so that we create expert learners, right? We don’t want to create great students who are really more compliant and answer questions. We want to create expert learners who know how to learn for themselves. And that’s what you’re providing, as they now know, the questions to ask to become better learners even in their other subjects. And he also made me think about, I work with several colleagues who are in our writing center at Appalachian State. And one of the things that they tell me about is that there are so many students who come in with the assignment that they’re supposed to write, and they’re not sure what they’re supposed to do. And so a lot of what they’re helping students do are asked these questions and, and it might go back to the, you know, well, you might need to ask your professor what it is because it probably seems clear to the professor. But it is not to the students or even sometimes to the writing center like Well, that’s, that is a tough one. I’m not exactly sure what he taught what what is being asked here, we definitely have to work on that. To be more clear.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  56:05

I think having that transparent framework for students, helps students also feel brave enough to ask these questions of faculty, even in a situation where they might feel intimidated, because this faculty member is such an expert. And this student is such a novice. Right? Yeah, I think it’s important for students to go into something understanding. You know, also, from a universal design perspective, this must be the case that students have the right to be to have the information they need to be ready for success. Yes. It’s not something that you’re asking for. That is outrageous or too much help. It is something that it is your right to have. Yeah, because it brings everyone to an equal readiness to succeed,

Lillian Nave  57:00

right. We don’t want any artificial barriers. And we want everybody to have the tools for success. And it’s our job as instructors to provide those tools for our students. Yeah, and I know, early on in my career, I didn’t realize that I, I wasn’t doing that. I assumed too many things, I didn’t realize or recognize the things that were hidden in my head that I hadn’t made clear to my students. And I as soon as I started to recognize those, I saw that I improved, and therefore my students work improved greatly because I was making it I was giving them the tools they needed to succeed. And not either withholding them or not even telling them about what they needed. But took me a while to figure out that I was making those assumptions in my head.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  57:49

One of the things I noticed that faculty sometimes struggle with when they first start using the transparent framework, is that they feel an obligation or responsibility to describe everything they possibly can about the purpose, the knowledge, the skills, the task and the criteria. And what they end up producing is a really long looking assignment prompt that then can be as confusing to students as as if the original assignment was okay. And this is another place where I think the student framework can be very helpful. Because once you’ve described or once students have mastered a particular skill. And of course, once that skill is clear, and students know that they know it, and you know that they know it. You don’t need to describe that again. Yeah. And the student framework will help you and help students remind themselves in you that this is what we mean, when we’re saying analyze this, I’m not going to give you three steps of analysis, right? I’m just going to say no analyze, and let’s be sure we understand what we all have the same understanding of what that means in this new assignment context. Yeah. But I would say it is, while it is a responsibility for teachers to help students reach the same readiness level, an easy way to do that is to even just use the same assignments you’ve got, and use the transparent the student transparent framework alongside of it as a way to parse the existing assignment, which means you could start right now by just using the transparent framework for students with any activity or any assignment that you have in your class. And the students will help you make it transparent to them. Yeah. And then once you figure out what’s transparent for this course, for this group of students, it won’t be the same exact way that the next group of students in your next term We’ll understand these words and these assignments. So that’s why this student version of the framework is so important, because it’s the one thing that ensures that you are getting students to the same level of readiness. Well,

Lillian Nave  1:00:13

we all make sure that we have that at the top of our resources on the podcast episode, for sure. And I’ll have a link to the TILT Iread site as well, which has, I assume, I actually have seen it, but lots of the research that you’ve been mentioning already that that tells about how equity focus this is and how helpful.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:00:31

Another thing that’s on that till website is a whole series of before and after pre and post tilted assignments that faculty have shared with us. And I’m always welcoming new submissions to for publication on the website, because the more examples across disciplines that we can offer, the easier it will be for faculty to adopt this.

Lillian Nave  1:00:58

Yeah. And that actually brings me to my my last question about the framework, which is about the criteria that you provide is successful criteria, like, what is it that a student can look at that they know, they’re on the right track, and you have suggested things like a rubric, which could be a one point rubric, or a multi point read rubric, or examples of successful either student work, or as you were talking about maybe a bridge engineering, you know, example of what it looks like? Do you have some that you could just share with us or ideas about what it might look like in different disciplines. I’ve tried to provide in mind an annotated example. Like we do one about our names a named story, which talks about cultural influences, so I share mine, and then I actually annotate the places where I’ve matched up with the steps that I’ve given them, like, here’s the part where I talk about culture and gender, you know, or here’s the thing, we’re talking about what my name hides, and what it shows are, and say that they that’s what it looks like. And of course, they can’t copy it, because they don’t have my name. But they would be able to kind of see some, you know, points as to what, what might make it work. But I can only imagine there are lots of other examples in many different disciplines. So wanted to throw it your way, knowing there’s plenty on the website, I know they can look there, but what do you have to share?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:02:32

So I would say, you know, thinking back to some of the examples that I’ve used, when students have been assigned, you know, the project of analyzing a 15th century Italian Renaissance painting of a Madonna and Child, right. I will provide them with different types of analyses, like different kinds of examples. So you know, of visual analysis that looks at the shapes and the colors and the contrasts and dimensions, then I could also offer them an analysis of a sort of social historical context for this, right. So how would the users have experienced this? How would they have used this object if we think of it as an artifact, as opposed to this thing that is hanging on a lawn and museum for us now, how was this used before and that’s a different way of analyzing this object. And then another way of analyzing the object that my students could choose was to design a way to display it in a museum, or in an online gallery, or in a virtual reality space, they could design an exhibit that would capture sort of the that would offer an opportunity to show what an original user might have experienced to talk about how your experience is different, right? This is another angle of analysis. Yeah. And so these are all examples of analysis, but they’re very different kinds of analysis. Yeah. And that means that when students look at these three examples, say, and then they look at the word, analyze, or have completed an analysis of the painting, on a on a checklist, or on a rubric, they will then have three different ways of understanding how their own analysis might actually look when it is finished and when it is successful. And then we can dive into discussing in each case, what is if it’s successful about this type of analysis of this same object. And then, once we were done in one of these courses, we put together all of the students work and created a kind of virtual museum. Yeah, great. All the types of analysis would be available to everyone.

Lillian Nave  1:05:11

Well, that’s another multiple means of, in that case analysis or, you know, multiple ways to be successful at the task multiple ways to present that thrives on learner variability. That is, exactly what I was talking about earlier, is we don’t want all of our students to just go through a cookie cutter type of assignment. But rather everybody’s learning from each other. And they’re taking the strengths of each student, somebody wants to do a visual analysis, that’s what they they feel that they’re going to be most competent on. Others are gonna do a social or political or whatever it is. And then everybody gets to learn from each other’s strengths in that way. That’s a very UDL designed, assignment and activity, I would say, so that everybody gets to benefit from everybody else’s strengths. So and learning through that, and then you you also are sort of graded on the your best

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:06:07

efforts, really, and you were really helping me to see so much of the alignment between the transparent framework and UDL guidelines and goals. Yes. And what I find to be sort of shared by both of them is that the goal of using these guidelines is ultimately, the best possible learning experiences and the best possible teaching experiences.

Lillian Nave  1:06:36

Yes, I would absolutely agree with you there. I see. So many ways that the TILT assignment design has matched up for me. And when I use it, I think, oh, there’s executive functioning right there. Like, when I start thinking about the tasks that I lay out, I’m thinking, Oh, this research project is going to require they need to find their figure out their thesis, and get it into me two weeks before they give me their outline, or something like that. And so I’ve started put in sort of deadlines and tasks and chunking into smaller areas. And that’s also part of our universal design, for learning guidelines that helps with executive functioning, guiding appropriate goal setting, supporting and planning, strategy, development, all of that relates also to different parts of that, in that case, that’s the task part of of tilt, higher ed. So there is so much overlap that I think they really work hand in hand. And it was not a hard sell for me when, when I learned about it from one of my colleagues. And we actually did a whole faculty retreat for our first year seminar. And I was just thinking about this. As you were talking about TILT and said the word tilt, we took pictures at our faculty retreat, there’s about 30 of us. And we went away to a little place in the Blue Ridge Mountains. And we had like two or three days, it was fantastic. And we took a picture of us, and then we all tilted to the side.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:08:03

So we I love that photo.

Lillian Nave  1:08:07

Because we had redesigned our assignments, which I think is so important for first year students, right, so they know what is expected of them. Later on. If you’re a fourth year, you know, you’re in your major, you’d know what analysis means in your discipline. But when we’re dealing with general education courses, those freshmen and sophomore level courses, we really need to be as clear, direct and transparent as possible for our students. So you kind of actually hinted on this by using the student version, an asking questions. But my last question is about if somebody wants to start, right, if they want to start the process of incorporating TILT higher ed, for their assignments, or for applying to their activities, or what they’re doing, what advice do you have for them as they seek to make their assignments more transparent?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:09:01

I think I would say that, it’s certainly useful for you to use the framework of purpose test criteria in order to clarify for yourself, what are those intuitive reasons that you have? What are those assumptions that you’ve made? What are the goals that you have for this assignment and for the students to experience? And once you’ve been able to sort of describe what those are. You can save yourself a lot of time by asking students then to parse that description for you. And to help you establish for their understanding, and from their perspective, what does success look like in different contexts in different areas? examples, I think I would discourage you from offering every possible piece of information about the skill or the knowledge or the criteria. Even when that feels like you, you totally now understand if you’ve got that the knack of it, it is so simple for you now, to describe all the tasks that would be involved. Yeah, but your students might not really feel very confident or, like they can see if they’re looking at a set a set of 21, Dax, or list, right. So I think you can save yourself some time and take advantage of students input, while training students to be better analyzers of assignments. If you put a version of the assignment that you think is relatively transparent, but not perfect, and of the students along with the student framework, I love the way the student framework can save time for faculty, and also encourage students to take ownership of their own understanding and their own readiness to succeed.

Lillian Nave  1:11:17

Wow, yeah, I have found that it brings me great clarity. When I look at my assignment, I try to run it through the TILT I read. And I did exactly actually what you just said, I started making, I think it was 25 tasks, like, Oh, we got to do this. And luckily, it was one of those processes that happened to me all the time, like you write and a, an essay, and you had finally like, you know, spent hours and hours and I get to and I get the conclusion. And then I think, Oh, this is my introduction, isn’t it? I did move that the conclusion is now my introduction. And but I’ve had all that time to clarify what I think. And that’s what it did is it helped me to clarify, okay, why am I doing this, and it helped me to say, you know, I don’t need this as part of the assignment. I really that’s kind of outside of what I need the students to do. And so I can lose that part. And I really need to talk to them about this part. That’s the real part I need in there. And so it gave me all of this clarity to say, Oh, this is really what I want. I thought I knew what I want. But now I can actually see this is what is important for the students to get out of it. I put it in a framework that made sense to me, and I’m hoping makes sense to the students. And I was able to kind of get rid of those things that were probably confusing for the students that I didn’t really need. But I sort of rambled when I started to write the assignment, and it took me a while to get to the point,

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:12:48

there may come a time when there are 27 steps. And if you can’t take any of those steps away, then what you have is three or four separate assignments, and you put them in a sequence, where the skills that you need first, yeah, you practice those first, and the knowledge that you need first, you obtain that first Yeah. And then you move on to what are the next skills that you can use in this discipline that depend on you knowing that first set of skills, yeah, and being able to master or at least use the first set of skills. So many faculty actually, when they start using the framework, they’ll start listing out the tasks, and they’ll realize that there are too many Yeah. And then they will divide the assignment into pieces, so that the student can focus on developing one or two important disciplinary skills at a time, you can’t really expect for students, especially no introductory or intermediate students, to hold a metacognitive focus of their own development and practice of 27 different skills or 12 different screens, all at the same time. So if you really want to boost students metacognitive awareness of what they’re mastering in terms of skills and what they’re learning in terms of knowledge, you want to limit that to a reasonable quantity of information that students can hold in their head and actually maintain a metacognitive focus on their development of that learning. Yeah, while they’re doing it. Yes. And that may lead to three, four or five different assignments from what you thought was one.

Lillian Nave  1:14:34

Yeah. And that, again, is a universal design for learning principle under multiple means of action and expression. And it falls under the executive functions, which is chunking and making smaller, doable tasks rather than one giant ball that they have to sort of sort out but to make it into smaller tasks that build upon each other. And you know, we don’t have to, I’m just throwing this out there. We don’t have to grade every single one of them, maybe it’s just you need to, you know, bring in your five sources check. You know, that’s and make sure these five sources are peer reviewed, they come from these journals, you’ve looked through the database, you know, there’s definitely five or six steps to get them. But that’s part of the much longer, okay, you’ve begun your research, right? Great. That’s your first step. But if we put that as steps one through seven of the 35 point system, we get way too much, maybe that’s alright, we’re bringing that in the next two weeks, here’s, here’s what it is check. Right, that’s your first part. And if you don’t get it, you need, you know, you need to make sure we check this off before you move on to the next part that is going to be the graded essay, or whatever it is. And

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:15:40

I also like to think about when when you say that not everything has to be graded, I think sometimes students need to have there has to be some, they have to have some stake in the work. So having a transparent purpose of knowledge, you’ll gain and skills you’ll practice that you can use later. Even if it’s not a graded assignment, it seems to have value, right? There’s practical value to that, to doing it. I even like to give students really low stakes assignments when they’re trying to do something for the very first time, or when they’re trying to do something creative and take a risk, yes, or do something that feels really uncomfortable. I like for those to be a low stakes opportunity to practice and master the knowledge and skills. Yes,

Lillian Nave  1:16:33

absolutely. And, and offering lots of chances to be risky and fail and learn from it. And I think is a lot of actually what my classes ended up being is they’re kind of crazy assignments, I ask them to draw or give a visual representation, and you don’t have to be good at it. As I know, I’m asking you to do something weird. I’m asking you to find somebody that you are different from in at least seven ways. And I’ve given them a whole bunch of different ways. And that’s strange and scary and weird. And so it’s, you know, it’s a low stakes. Like you’re not, it’s, it’s really just a one point, you need to complete this assignment and ask these questions. But you won’t be getting an A, B, C, or D on it. But I do need you to, you know, tell me about how you felt as you were doing and that that sort of thing. And so then they’re worried more about just getting it done and trying it rather than doing it perfectly is the point and when I might mark that out, or I put that in the task and the purpose, like here’s the task, but the whole purpose is that you’re getting out of your comfort zone. That’s the purpose of this. So if you feel really weird, and you don’t know what you’re doing, that means you’re doing it right. But they wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t said that. You know what the purpose of of it was?

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:17:52

Right, right. And that’s how you’re maintaining their confidence and their sense of belonging and encouraging their metacognitive focus as opposed to their panic and fear about whether they’re doing it right. Yeah. And how much it will affect their grade? Yes, yeah. And by offering these many low stakes, ways to practice the knowledge, the skills to gain the knowledge to try some of the tasks for the first time, you are in fact helping to strengthen your students capacity to be excellent learners.

Lillian Nave  1:18:28

Yes, absolutely. We want them to be expert learners, so that they can carry that on for the rest of their lives. That’s what we hope. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I’m taking a lot of your time today. I really appreciate your answers. And I’m really excited to get the this TILT higher ed out to our listeners, it’s been something that has transformed my teaching made me much more clear about what I’m doing. And so I wanted to share it and I just thank you so much for the chance to talk to you on the podcast.

Mary-Ann Winklemes  1:18:59

And thank you, Lillian for the opportunity to share this with others and for helping me to understand just how closely TILT and UDL are aligned. Yes, absolutely all for the goal of making expert learners right.

Lillian Nave  1:19:16

Thank you so much. You can follow the think UDL podcast on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to find out when new episodes will be released, and also see transcripts and additional materials at the think website. The think UDL podcast is made possible by College STAR the star stands for supporting transition, access and retention in post secondary settings, and the website provides free resources and instructional aides based on UDL print. polls. If you’d like to know more, go to the college website. Additional support for the podcast is made possible by Appalachian State University where if you call it Appalachian, I’ll throw in Appalachia. The music on the podcast was performed by the Odyssey quartet comprised of Rex Shepherd, David Pate, Bill Folwell and Jose Cochez. Our sound engineer is Tanner Jones and I am your host, Lillian Nave. Thank you for joining us on The think UDL podcast.

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